Full-Race Geoff

one of the well known racers (also well known on this board) was a running a race manifold we built for him.

The manifold was constructed fully out of 304L thickwall tube, and the wastegate tube was made from 321 16 gauge tubing. We did this so that the machined lip on the wastegate flange would be a slipfit into the tube.

He qualified second, however the 321 wasnt able to hold the weight that an equivalent thickwall tube would have been able to, and the tube cracked. This is simply becuase of the huge moment of inertia a large (very large, in the case of the innovative turbo wastegate).

Had this tube been a thickwall tube, we would have been able to prepare the material more to get much more weld surface area.

please dont respond with anything like "does this mean my 321 is garbage" "you suck geoff, i hate you" or any of that crap. just thought this was interesting and wanted to share. thats all. we had a manifold crack, ill never use thinwall again.

Gmedalion

i'll let u know how mine works out when we go out with it.

boosted hybrid

How much does that wastegate weigh? I am not doubting you, but it would take some decent weight to create a large enough moment to crack the metal. BTW, how are these cracking stress fatigue, buckling, creep, etc?

Full-Race Geoff

lenny, yours uses a thickwall tube that we machined to fit, it will not crack.

jeff, i havent seen what kind of crack this is, but i will see soon enough. The tube cracked on the tube itself, not on the weld.


[Modified by FFgeoff, 12:45 AM 3/4/2003]

PrecisionH23a

you rock geoff, we love you

honestly, thanks for sharing with us. some companies would keep their mouth shut if they had a crack happen but at least you are honest

UberTeg

hmmk, this proves we shouldnt makemanifolds out of 16 guagee 321? Duh?

Arturbo

Trust me, this wasnt fun.

0KStuned

*cough* PICTURES *cough*

DeepSi

so was this earl and mike's car? just asking.

ninesecrx

yeah, it was on our car. The Innovative wastegate is a pretty big and heavy gate...although it works great. Lucky enough Bruce from the Venom team had their welder out there and he was able to lay a nice bead down to fix the crack so we could make the next round. Geoff and I talked about some ways to fix the issue and This is pretty much a rare ocurance from the material. Its a good thing we found the crack before the round though because it would have been a really big problem if the gate fell off and out the car all together. This just proves the reason that full-race chooses to make their manis out of the thick material and why it works. So there wont be any pics at this point, but like Geoff said, it wasnt a weld or anything...it actually cracked almost around the entire pipe like about 2 cemimeters from where the collector is. The car still ran 149mph with the crack leaking all the boost out so look out for us in Vegas in a couple of weeks.


[Modified by ninesecrx, 8:07 AM 3/4/2003]

SEFIxCivic

make any good passes?

ninesecrx

Just testing the car right now. Seeing how the new set up works and getting it dialed in for Vegas.

Dee

You suck Geoff!! Just kidding mang. Thanks for the report! I'll hit you up for parts as soon as I get my car back so I can strip it .

camp1320.com

The INNOVIATE is just as big as the Turbonetices RACE gate. the GREDDY type-C , tial 46mm, and HKS GT SERIES WG are just as big or bigger then the innovative...ALTHOUGH FULL RACE in my opinion has the best manifolds on HT, everyones manifolds crack.. SPARKS,REVHARD,HOTSHOT,CUSTOM,FULLRACE....im glad FULLRACE has admiited to a cracked manifold becasue for what i remembered he said his manifold never cracked..!! you dont have to explain yourself FF.. nothing is ever lasting when it coming to pushing LIMITS...


[Modified by camp1320.com, 12:23 AM 3/4/2003]

Full-Race Geoff

what are you talking about tom?

Our normal manifolds are not made of thin wall. This would not have happened if it were thickwall.

the innovative is WAY bigger than the 46 tial or the racegate. The HKS is way bigger than those two. Running a few times on the dyno and making a couple passes are hardly limits, it was just a lesson in materials


[Modified by FFgeoff, 3:49 AM 3/4/2003]

camp1320.com

the Innovative is the same as the RACEGATE.. innovative PROGATE copied the Turbonetices RACEGATE.im just saying that sometime manifolds crack.. everyones knows you have one great manifold.Ill just saying that welds crack. theres nothing you can do about it..nothing is everlasting.everyting weakens and breaks after time..right.??i seen $15,000 motor blow up on first pass on the dynos.. Dont take it personally Geoff ..im just making a statement i think FULLRACE

ninesecrx

The innovative gate is way bigger then the Tial or the turbonetics race gate. It probably weighs like an extra 4 pounds over it. Just look at the tops of them. The HKS GT gate is super big and weighs a ton as well. Further more it didnt crack at a weld, it cracked in the middle of the tubbing. This WILL NOT ever happen on there regular manifold not will the actual manifold on my car crack. It was the wastegate port that cracked that was made of a entirely different material then what the actual manifolds are made of. Like Geoff said though, its a lesson learned trying to make life a little easier with the material and it made it a little harder...but glad it happened to me so everyone else wont ever have an issue like this.

DeepSi

1. Could it have been just the metal and not the deisgn/assemble of the manifold? Maybe it was just bad metal or something that caused the crack in the metal?
2. Also if you dont mind me asking, why did you decide to use a different metal for just the wastegate? I am not an engineer or not technical in this field so i am just asking.

Your manifolds are still top notch with me and you get mad props from me for just admitting to this and taking the responsibility for it. That takes mad ***** to do it.


[Modified by DeepSi, 1:03 AM 3/4/2003]

Arturbo

Yes, its called 321 16gauge.

Full-Race Javier

guess which is the thin gauge

SuperT

And this proves what?

I did my own test...took a 7" long piece of 321 welded it to a 1/2 flat stock, I then put it in the press and supported it so the press would apply pressure on the end of the 321 pipe. It took 2750 pounds before it bent...

This failure described above was simply a defective piece and by no means represents anything factual about the properties of 321.


Even with a 5 G launch and a 1.1 60ft a 5lb wastegate would only weigh 25lbs...

Hell, even aluminum would probably support 1000lbs...or mild steel would support the same as 321 or chromolly(most metals have about the same tensile and shear strengths)

I think FFgeoff is still trying to defend his 304L which is stronger in shear strength due to its thickness(probably would hold 10000pounds before it bent)

This failure described above only describes a failure, it tells nothing about the material...

SiRkid

very good learning experience in a way!
full race

ninesecrx

I think in order for your test to work though, you would have to heat the metal to 1000 plus deg. because that would change the strenth and all the other qualitys of the metals.

Full-Race Geoff

1) very possible

2) we used a different metal becuase when we built the manifold, we did not weld the wastegate flange on. Becuase of this, mike was bringing the manifold to another fabricator to weld his wastgegate flange on (he did not have the wastegate at the time i fabricated the manifold)

being in this situation, i was trying to make it as simple as possible for the other fabricator to get the job done, without too much headache. It is easier to weld thinwall than thickwall, especially to a flat flange, and he is used to welding thinwall as he has constructed many other thinwall manifolds.

In retrosepct i wish i had used a thickwall piece, but we will cut the thin piece off and weld a thick one on soon enough!


[Modified by FFgeoff, 3:12 PM 3/4/2003]

SuperT

Yeah, heating it would make a difference, I'll have to try that, but it will still hold a ton, no pun intended...

Thick guage like Geoff uses would probably hold a Chevy Dually truck on it...

Just making a point that it wasn't the properties of the stainless or the thickness that made it fail...it was most likely a defect of some sort...

Though metal does fatigue with time, FFGeoff, I assume this manifold was rather new?