Disco Stu

I was at the shop picking up a buddy of mines car that just got tuned and made really, really low numbers for what it was (car is a 92 hatch with a b16a2 in it. 50 trim T3/t4 63.a/r, .60 a.r couldn't hold more then five pounds due to a vaccum leak or something but only made 192hp and 137ft. lbs. I know, very dissapointing. ). The shop, for anyone in Western Washington is Carb Connection, and the tuner does really good tunes as far as safe, daily drivers are concerned, but also ULTRA conservative from what I can tell. I guess I can see how they would want to be real safe so they can say they've never had a car blow up I guess, but damn, only 192 at 5 pounds is silly. AND THAT WAS THROUGH AN OPEN E-CUTOUT. My buddies car drives FLAWLESSLY, but, it just doesn't make the power it should. Even at a full 7 pounds like it should be making (running just off the .5 bar spring, no boost controller) Its still not gonna make more than 215 tops, and thats just not that good. Well, anyway, I was talking to the tuner and I told him I was gonna run a stock block jdm gsr, equal length mani, Skunk2 intake mani, 60 trim t3/t04e stage 3 exahust wheel, rc 550s, and will be running off the .5 bar spring in the wastegate for now until i get a boost controller. He told me i shouldn't expect anything more than 240hp and 200tq. Granted, the tunes he does are excellent for daily driving and 240 is still fun on the street, but hes also talking best case here and looking at my buddies car, it may be even less. My question is (yes I do have a question for those people still reading after this long *** ****) how are all you guys getting great results like 300+ off identical setups? I mean, what are your tuners doing different than this guy? I can't stress enough that my friends car drives like its stock, but from what i hear from others on H-T, so do there cars, AND they make 300 to the wheels at 7psi. Should I find someone else? Thank you in advance for anyone that read all that and still chooses to answer!

Disco Stu

I just read the other post where a guy with a stock gsr put down 280 @ 5psi. How does this guy think only 240 are possible @ 7 psi? Also though, someone else in that thread did say that the norm for gsr's at 7pounds is about 240-250, so I guess I'm talking more about people who are a little better than average. So whats your secret?

Mase

you gotta take a few things into consideration.

first, what dyno is it, some dynos, like mustang dynos usually read lower.

Secondly, it honestly depends on the setup, u said there were problems with the car that was being tuned. if there are leaks and ****, it will never see its potential.
Ive seen clean setups, but the turbo is crap and not make **** for power, but ive also seen junk setups but seem to make power.

then of course there is the tune. if the tuner doesnt know what he's doing, sure he can throw it down to 12:1 AFR but thats not even half the battle. he could have pulled timing way way back, and it not make **** for power...

twkdCD595

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mase &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">you gotta take a few things into consideration.

first, what dyno is it, some dynos, like mustang dynos usually read lower.

Secondly, it honestly depends on the setup, u said there were problems with the car that was being tuned. if there are leaks and ****, it will never see its potential.
Ive seen clean setups, but the turbo is crap and not make **** for power, but ive also seen junk setups but seem to make power.

then of course there is the tune. if the tuner doesnt know what he's doing, sure he can throw it down to 12:1 AFR but thats not even half the battle. he could have pulled timing way way back, and it not make **** for power...</TD></TR></TABLE>

well said...

btw my moneys on the 3rd part... the no timming and convservative tuning= less than impressive results.

mntuner2

I'd have to agree. You commented that they are known for their good daily driven tunes. If this is the case then go tell them you want your honda to be as reliable as a chevy.

macrosshn

iTrader: (1)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mntuner2 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'd have to agree. You commented that they are known for their good daily driven tunes. If this is the case then go tell them you want your honda to be as reliable as a chevy.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Haha. I'd take a reliable tune with less power over a risky tune with more power anyday of the week.

CRX T-Si

Your worry about the psi too much. The turbo that your buddy have is small so a smaller turbo will have to boost more to make the same power levels as bigger turbos.

So 5psi on your turbo is not the same as EXP: SC61, it's all about the CFM flow.

Especially when you have problems prior to your tuning sesson then you can't blame your tuner. Your tuner will tune your car to what you have, he/she will only adjust your working setup if something doesn't work correctly then that is another story.

If your vacuum leak was non-existent then he might had boosted it higher and then you might have gotten your power levels.

Like Mase said, too many variables, maybe you can get the leak fixed and meet him at Nopi so he can tune your car.

22psicrx

thats the problem I have, I have a small 18g made 300whp at 15 psi and 22psi for 350. If I had a different turbo like a t4 spool time would be longer but hp would be crazy. b16 with 10psi only make between 250 -270. so 5 psi doesn't seem bad. Again longevity is the goal not who has the most hp

Blackack26

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by CRX T-Si &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Your worry about the psi too much. The turbo that your buddy have is small so a smaller turbo will have to boost more to make the same power levels as bigger turbos.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

50 trim t3/t40e .63 ar (same as my SC50) isnt exactly a small turbo, people with hondas just seem to run excessively large turbos.

donkiman

240whp at 7psi is not that bad. its almost average. i saw 290whp at 9psi and that was considered really good (conservative gsr t3/to4e). u could crank it up to 9 or 10 if u wanted. I mean u did say there was a vacume leak somewhere in ur buddys ride. might wanna fix that. that one guy who hit 282 on 5.5 psi is very rare. maybe get a compression test before u boost.

JalopySiR

I hit 210 WHP at only 6psi at only 6Krpm on a T3 60 trim compressor... This was on a B20. This was also with a full degree of retard per psi, and a 12afr across the board, getting slightly richer towards the top. Tuned by myself on an S-AFC/450cc hack...
Your numbers do seem a bit low, but then you have no idea what he is doing...you need to know exactly what is being done...
You also need to have your car running as well as you can get it before you go to the dyno.

rhettster

I had a similar experience with Carb Conn. My setup is a very clean Revhard stage2 kit in a '99 Si with 550cc injectors and a 255lph Walbro pump. My exhaust is a bit of a limitation since I like how quiet the Apexi WS catback is.

Anyway, I tuned to 205whp at 7psi at 7k RPM (they didn't rev the motor to redline).

Initially, I was very disappointed by this, but then I did some math. At 7k RPM, 205 HP would be about 152 ft/lbs or torque. If the engine simply maintains that to redline (let's just keep the stock redline of 8200), then the peak HP would be around 237 whp. That's not great for 7psi, but it's far from crappy.

What do you experienced guys think of this? Is it a good idea to only run to 7K when dyno tuning? How can the rest of the fuel and timing map be right if you don't run it to redline?


Modified by rhettster at 4:33 AM 9/8/2004

Disco Stu

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by CRX T-Si &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Your worry about the psi too much. The turbo that your buddy have is small so a smaller turbo will have to boost more to make the same power levels as bigger turbos.

So 5psi on your turbo is not the same as EXP: SC61, it's all about the CFM flow.

Especially when you have problems prior to your tuning sesson then you can't blame your tuner. Your tuner will tune your car to what you have, he/she will only adjust your working setup if something doesn't work correctly then that is another story.

If your vacuum leak was non-existent then he might had boosted it higher and then you might have gotten your power levels.

Like Mase said, too many variables, maybe you can get the leak fixed and meet him at Nopi so he can tune your car.</TD></TR></TABLE>

It turns out that there was no vaccum leak, rather the vaccum line for the wastegate was connected to the turbo and not the mani, at the turbo it was reading 7 psi, but once it went through the intercooler, it apparently created a pressure drop of 2 psi. Beyond that, everything on my buddies motor was healthy. They did a compression and leakdown test and everything was perfect. While I do understand about psi vs. cfm when it comes to turbos, my main concern still lies in the fact that this tuner is turning out cars that are running in a lot of cases 50 + hp less than other cars I've seen with the exact setups (yes I understand every car is different) and apparently these other cars are no more safe than mine would be. So I'm more concerned about what it is that my tuner is or isn't doing as opposed to others? So although I know I could achieve the power goals I originally intended to hit with this setup, by buying a boost controller and upping the boost, well....that involves buying a boost controller which is just more money that I don't have. To try and sum it all up again, I want safe, but I've seen other tuners on this board from around the country turn out cars that make way more and still drive daily just fine. Hmmm....

Disco Stu

Also, the dyno was a dynojet, and I have to say again, that those numbers were on an open e-cutout. Also, the shop informed my friend that the car was not smoking at all when the dyno runs, and first test drives were made. So if the turbo is blown, it wasn't blown when the dynos were made apparently.

Blind-Fashion

Carb connection ******* sucks man, drive down to intec, they know their ****.

USDM 4G VTEC

my local tuner uses as a rule of thumb the following:

about 10hp gain per/PSI

that way he knows when hes tunning if the numbers are right,,, he chooses 10hp/psi since not all turbos are the same

thatg B16 prob made around140-150 whp... with the 50 hp gain with turbo, thats about 190-200whp
not bad if u ask me

mike1114

iTrader: (1)

B18C
10:1 Compression
boost starts around 3400, full boost @ 4700 rpms @ 10psi
t3/t4oe 57 trim .60/.63 ar's.
Hondata
281whp 181tq
2.5 inch DP and Exh.
Soon I'm gonn switch to a .48 turbine housing for faster spool.

I have a rather conservative tune in my opinion, I'm only making 280whp @10psi, I have a few things to upgrade soon and then I'm gonna hit up MASE for some better, less conservative (But still safe!!!) tuning.

You numbers are rather low though, must just be the small turbo.

mntuner2

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by CRX T-Si &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">...

So 5psi on your turbo is not the same as EXP: SC61, it's all about the CFM flow.

...</TD></TR></TABLE>

I think CFM is directly related to PSI.

Good reply their Blind Fashion, what exactly sucks about them??

jumpmann23

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Blind Fashion &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Carb connection ******* sucks man, drive down to intec, they know their ****.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Wideopentuning

They just let my buddies Jetta 2.0 16v with a GT3071R out the door with a rollercoaster air fuel curve from 11:1 to 13:1 and 30+degrees of timing under boost. Made 262 whp and 209 tq at 16 psi. Those numbers are terrible for that setup. SDS managment by they way.