idea that's similar to "leaf blower"
10-22-2005, 06:07 AM
#1
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idea that's similar to "leaf blower"
Now that i have your attention...
Okay, now before i even begin to gather my thoughts and type this, i know that there's gonna be some douche that completely shoots my idea down and says "no, just get a turbo, and quit monkeying around" However i've given a decent amount of thought into this....
i recently (3 months ago) started a job where i work on mack trucks. These things have air compressors on them that are gear driven (NOT electrical) These air compressors are what powers the brakes, and other mechanical accessories. Compressed air is stored in the tanks on the sides of these things, some of you may have seen them and wondered if they were propane tanks for that extra boost when they're going up hills.
Anyways, i started thinking about the mechanics behind belt driven air compressors and a few seconds later i figured that this concept was very similar to a supercharger.
in my honda builders handbook (the one with the 825hp gsr motor on the cover) it goes over the different ways of making power, and as everyone knows, the most effective way is to pressurize the intake. Now i have taken notice on how these lowriders with air bags use an electrical air compressor to compress the air and store it in a small tank....
basically, get a small tank that's filled with compressed air, hook a air hose up to it, use a air pressure regulator (wastegate) set for say, 5psi) would this work similar to nitrous?
No, i am not saying i'm going to do this and go out "street racing." No, i don't plan on doing this to my car, etc. etc. I am just curious if such a concept is remotely feasible.
If it were possible, man, it would be a whole lot of fun to pick up one of those ford festivas for the 200 bucks that people tend to let them go for and blow it up hahahahah
Okay, now before i even begin to gather my thoughts and type this, i know that there's gonna be some douche that completely shoots my idea down and says "no, just get a turbo, and quit monkeying around" However i've given a decent amount of thought into this....
i recently (3 months ago) started a job where i work on mack trucks. These things have air compressors on them that are gear driven (NOT electrical) These air compressors are what powers the brakes, and other mechanical accessories. Compressed air is stored in the tanks on the sides of these things, some of you may have seen them and wondered if they were propane tanks for that extra boost when they're going up hills.
Anyways, i started thinking about the mechanics behind belt driven air compressors and a few seconds later i figured that this concept was very similar to a supercharger.
in my honda builders handbook (the one with the 825hp gsr motor on the cover) it goes over the different ways of making power, and as everyone knows, the most effective way is to pressurize the intake. Now i have taken notice on how these lowriders with air bags use an electrical air compressor to compress the air and store it in a small tank....
basically, get a small tank that's filled with compressed air, hook a air hose up to it, use a air pressure regulator (wastegate) set for say, 5psi) would this work similar to nitrous?
No, i am not saying i'm going to do this and go out "street racing." No, i don't plan on doing this to my car, etc. etc. I am just curious if such a concept is remotely feasible.
If it were possible, man, it would be a whole lot of fun to pick up one of those ford festivas for the 200 bucks that people tend to let them go for and blow it up hahahahah
10-22-2005, 06:25 AM
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Re: idea that's similar to "leaf blower" (Gordon Liddy)
I'm no expert on the subject but I think what you're going to run into is that the engine takes up such a volume of compressed air to make more horsepower that the tank is going to either run out near instantly or you aren't going to be able to feed the engine enough compressed air quick enough with the small lines the tank probably takes.
10-22-2005, 07:06 AM
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Re: idea that's similar to "leaf blower" (Gordon Liddy)
There are a few electric superchargers on the market.They become very expensive (around $3500 if I remember) compaired to turbos and belt drive supercharges.They take alot of amps to run and need time to recharge the batterys after a sustained run.The good part is they will make full boost regardless of rpm.A small air compressor is not going to do the job. http://www.turbomagazine.com/tech/0406tur_knight/ http://boosthead.com/home.php
Glenn
Glenn
10-22-2005, 07:17 AM
#4
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Re: idea that's similar to "leaf blower" (Gordon Liddy)
"no, just get a turbo, and quit monkeying around"
Let's start by figuring out how much air we're dealing with, let's say you have a 40 gallon tank at 100 PSI, that's roughly 2.9 pounds of air.
Now (CID x RPM) / 3456 = CFM that your engine uses, so let's go with a B16 which displaces about 97.6 cubic inches, and I want to boost it across a RPM range of 3000-7000 RPM (averaged to 5000), that gives us 141.2 CFM. That'a at 100% volumetric efficiency (VE), so figure at a more realistic VE of 90% and the CFM drops to 127. Converting it to pounds of air (CFMx.069, everythings easier if you do this) gives us 8.736 lbs/min.
Of course the air will be at 5 PSI so calculating a pressure ratio using the following formula:
[Boost Pressure + Ambient Pressure (14.7 at sea level)]/Ambient Pressues=Pressure Ratio
I get (5+14.7)/14.7=1.34
so apply our pressure ratio to out lbs/min and we get 11.7 pounds of air that wa need to run our motor at 5 PSI. We only have 2.9 pounds in the tank, and the tank will only be able to maintain 5 PSI until it gets to about 1.34x the ambient pressure mass of the air in the tank, so I figure it will take less than 14 seconds to use up the tank, maybe 10 seconds.
Now you just have to build a regulator and delivery system that will deliver the air at the right pressure at a volume up to about 200 CFM (what it will need at peak RPM).
At this point the guy with the turbo kit has spent less time, less money, has a car that goes fast for more than 10 seconds, and has some room in the trunk because it isn't taken up by a giant air tank.
P.S. - feel free to gig my math, this was done in a couple of minutes, so I'm sure I fudged it a bit
Let's start by figuring out how much air we're dealing with, let's say you have a 40 gallon tank at 100 PSI, that's roughly 2.9 pounds of air.
Now (CID x RPM) / 3456 = CFM that your engine uses, so let's go with a B16 which displaces about 97.6 cubic inches, and I want to boost it across a RPM range of 3000-7000 RPM (averaged to 5000), that gives us 141.2 CFM. That'a at 100% volumetric efficiency (VE), so figure at a more realistic VE of 90% and the CFM drops to 127. Converting it to pounds of air (CFMx.069, everythings easier if you do this) gives us 8.736 lbs/min.
Of course the air will be at 5 PSI so calculating a pressure ratio using the following formula:
[Boost Pressure + Ambient Pressure (14.7 at sea level)]/Ambient Pressues=Pressure Ratio
I get (5+14.7)/14.7=1.34
so apply our pressure ratio to out lbs/min and we get 11.7 pounds of air that wa need to run our motor at 5 PSI. We only have 2.9 pounds in the tank, and the tank will only be able to maintain 5 PSI until it gets to about 1.34x the ambient pressure mass of the air in the tank, so I figure it will take less than 14 seconds to use up the tank, maybe 10 seconds.
Now you just have to build a regulator and delivery system that will deliver the air at the right pressure at a volume up to about 200 CFM (what it will need at peak RPM).
At this point the guy with the turbo kit has spent less time, less money, has a car that goes fast for more than 10 seconds, and has some room in the trunk because it isn't taken up by a giant air tank.
P.S. - feel free to gig my math, this was done in a couple of minutes, so I'm sure I fudged it a bit
10-22-2005, 07:19 AM
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Re: idea that's similar to "leaf blower" (NJIN BUILDR)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by rmcdaniels »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">"no, just get a turbo, and quit monkeying around"
Let's start by figuring out how much air we're dealing with, let's say you have a 40 gallon tank at 100 PSI, that's roughly 2.9 pounds of air.
Now (CID x RPM) / 3456 = CFM that your engine uses, so let's go with a B16 which displaces about 97.6 cubic inches, and I want to boost it across a RPM range of 3000-7000 RPM (averaged to 5000), that gives us 141.2 CFM. That'a at 100% volumetric efficiency (VE), so figure at a more realistic VE of 90% and the CFM drops to 127. Converting it to pounds of air (CFMx.069, everythings easier if you do this) gives us 8.736 lbs/min.
Of course the air will be at 5 PSI so calculating a pressure ratio using the following formula:
[Boost Pressure + Ambient Pressure (14.7 at sea level)]/Ambient Pressues=Pressure Ratio
I get (5+14.7)/14.7=1.34
so apply our pressure ratio to out lbs/min and we get 11.7 pounds of air that wa need to run our motor at 5 PSI. We only have 2.9 pounds in the tank, and the tank will only be able to maintain 5 PSI until it gets to about 1.34x the ambient pressure mass of the air in the tank, so I figure it will take less than 14 seconds to use up the tank, maybe 10 seconds.
Now you just have to build a regulator and delivery system that will deliver the air at the right pressure at a volume up to about 200 CFM (what it will need at peak RPM).
At this point the guy with the turbo kit has spent less time, less money, has a car that goes fast for more than 10 seconds, and has some room in the trunk because it isn't taken up by a giant air tank.
P.S. - feel free to gig my math, this was done in a couple of minutes, so I'm sure I fudged it a bit
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Wow
Let's start by figuring out how much air we're dealing with, let's say you have a 40 gallon tank at 100 PSI, that's roughly 2.9 pounds of air.
Now (CID x RPM) / 3456 = CFM that your engine uses, so let's go with a B16 which displaces about 97.6 cubic inches, and I want to boost it across a RPM range of 3000-7000 RPM (averaged to 5000), that gives us 141.2 CFM. That'a at 100% volumetric efficiency (VE), so figure at a more realistic VE of 90% and the CFM drops to 127. Converting it to pounds of air (CFMx.069, everythings easier if you do this) gives us 8.736 lbs/min.
Of course the air will be at 5 PSI so calculating a pressure ratio using the following formula:
[Boost Pressure + Ambient Pressure (14.7 at sea level)]/Ambient Pressues=Pressure Ratio
I get (5+14.7)/14.7=1.34
so apply our pressure ratio to out lbs/min and we get 11.7 pounds of air that wa need to run our motor at 5 PSI. We only have 2.9 pounds in the tank, and the tank will only be able to maintain 5 PSI until it gets to about 1.34x the ambient pressure mass of the air in the tank, so I figure it will take less than 14 seconds to use up the tank, maybe 10 seconds.
Now you just have to build a regulator and delivery system that will deliver the air at the right pressure at a volume up to about 200 CFM (what it will need at peak RPM).
At this point the guy with the turbo kit has spent less time, less money, has a car that goes fast for more than 10 seconds, and has some room in the trunk because it isn't taken up by a giant air tank.
P.S. - feel free to gig my math, this was done in a couple of minutes, so I'm sure I fudged it a bit
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Wow
10-22-2005, 07:38 AM
#6
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Re: idea that's similar to "leaf blower" (rmcdaniels)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by rmcdaniels »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Of course the air will be at 5 PSI so calculating a pressure ratio using the following formula:
[Boost Pressure + Ambient Pressure (14.7 at sea level)]/Ambient Pressues=Pressure Ratio
I get (5+14.7)/14.7=1.34
so apply our pressure ratio to out lbs/min and we get 11.7 pounds of air that wa need to run our motor at 5 PSI. We only have 2.9 pounds in the tank, and the tank will only be able to maintain 5 PSI until it gets to about 1.34x the ambient pressure mass of the air in the tank, so I figure it will take less than 14 seconds to use up the tank, maybe 10 seconds.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
how did you get 11.7? wouldn't 1.34 * 14.7 be 19.698?
thank you for taking the time to give me a realistic explanation instead of saying "NO IT WOULDN'T WORK NEWB"
[Boost Pressure + Ambient Pressure (14.7 at sea level)]/Ambient Pressues=Pressure Ratio
I get (5+14.7)/14.7=1.34
so apply our pressure ratio to out lbs/min and we get 11.7 pounds of air that wa need to run our motor at 5 PSI. We only have 2.9 pounds in the tank, and the tank will only be able to maintain 5 PSI until it gets to about 1.34x the ambient pressure mass of the air in the tank, so I figure it will take less than 14 seconds to use up the tank, maybe 10 seconds.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
how did you get 11.7? wouldn't 1.34 * 14.7 be 19.698?
thank you for taking the time to give me a realistic explanation instead of saying "NO IT WOULDN'T WORK NEWB"
10-22-2005, 07:53 AM
#7
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Re: idea that's similar to "leaf blower" (Gordon Liddy)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Gordon Liddy »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
how did you get 11.7? wouldn't 1.34 * 14.7 be 19.698?
thank you for taking the time to give me a realistic explanation instead of saying "NO IT WOULDN'T WORK NEWB"</TD></TR></TABLE>
The pressure ratio is applied to the 8.736 lbs/min of air that it takes to run the engine at ambient pressure.
No problem, us engineers live for these types of questions. For some decent reading on this type of stuff, there are some good articles in the TurboSaturns archive, I especially like:
http://www.turbosaturns.net/ar...s.htm
and
http://www.turbosaturns.net/ar...2.htm
how did you get 11.7? wouldn't 1.34 * 14.7 be 19.698?
thank you for taking the time to give me a realistic explanation instead of saying "NO IT WOULDN'T WORK NEWB"</TD></TR></TABLE>
The pressure ratio is applied to the 8.736 lbs/min of air that it takes to run the engine at ambient pressure.
No problem, us engineers live for these types of questions. For some decent reading on this type of stuff, there are some good articles in the TurboSaturns archive, I especially like:
http://www.turbosaturns.net/ar...s.htm
and
http://www.turbosaturns.net/ar...2.htm
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10-22-2005, 07:53 AM
#8
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Re: idea that's similar to "leaf blower" (Gordon Liddy)
http://www.actionvillage.com/i...lA_2t
just to feed gas to the flames. better give me 2 of the big ones...
just to feed gas to the flames. better give me 2 of the big ones...
10-22-2005, 10:22 AM
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What if the tank was cryoed after the air was put in it....I mean, then you could get more air in there? probably a stupid question but thats what you do when you fill your nitrous up
10-22-2005, 10:44 AM
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Re: (Stingray96)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Stingray96 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What if the tank was cryoed after the air was put in it....I mean, then you could get more air in there? probably a stupid question but thats what you do when you fill your nitrous up</TD></TR></TABLE>
If you're going to put a liquified gas in the tank, then you may as well use nitrous oxide. I think the original point was that you could use a compressor and a tank and use a free renewable resource like air, as opposed to paying for tank refills of a liquefied gas like nitrous. If you do that, then you're probably limited in how much PSI you can store without spending a fortune, maybe a couple of hundred PSI with a good tank and compressor, and that only gets you a few seconds of engine time.
If you're going to put a liquified gas in the tank, then you may as well use nitrous oxide. I think the original point was that you could use a compressor and a tank and use a free renewable resource like air, as opposed to paying for tank refills of a liquefied gas like nitrous. If you do that, then you're probably limited in how much PSI you can store without spending a fortune, maybe a couple of hundred PSI with a good tank and compressor, and that only gets you a few seconds of engine time.
10-22-2005, 12:43 PM
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Re: (rhd)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by rhd »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">roger....b16's have a VE of around 110%</TD></TR></TABLE>
Thanks, I'd heard that they could get over 100% at certain RPM's under the right circumstances, but never really found any concrete info on it. That would mean that the air tank would last even less time.
Thanks, I'd heard that they could get over 100% at certain RPM's under the right circumstances, but never really found any concrete info on it. That would mean that the air tank would last even less time.
10-22-2005, 03:09 PM
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Re: (00IntegrAllmotoR)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Laserjock »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">just to feed gas to the flames. better give me 2 of the big ones...</TD></TR></TABLE>
And Harry, I need them by tonight
And Harry, I need them by tonight
10-22-2005, 04:20 PM
#16
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Re: (rhd)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by rhd »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">roger....b16's have a VE of around 110%</TD></TR></TABLE>
that's cause they rev to 8k, right?
that's cause they rev to 8k, right?
10-22-2005, 06:19 PM
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I was just curious if that would work, as opposed to non cryoed air, i was thinking it would cost more. Just curious if it would last longer and would hold more air. I think you said it would hold like a couple more hundred psi but i just skimmed through it.
10-22-2005, 06:56 PM
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Re: (Gordon Liddy)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Gordon Liddy »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
that's cause they rev to 8k, right?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Well most motors have max VE at peak torque RPM. But most VTEC or variable valve motors can have max VE at a higher RPM and percentage because it just inhales a lot more air cause the engine is making so many more revolutions per minute (RPM), or something to that effect.
I did some research on Prelude VE % a few years back. I found a link on autospeed.com that listed the peak VE% for a H22 and F20C. They listed the H22 at 102% VE at peak HP rpm, while the F20C was 112% VE also at peak HP rpm. The B16-B18C's should lie somewhere between the two. BTW the autospeed link gets it's info from an SAE paper that was done by a groupd of Honda engineers. So I would say the source is pretty good, hehehe.
http://autospeed.drive.com.au/...=1127
that's cause they rev to 8k, right?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Well most motors have max VE at peak torque RPM. But most VTEC or variable valve motors can have max VE at a higher RPM and percentage because it just inhales a lot more air cause the engine is making so many more revolutions per minute (RPM), or something to that effect.
I did some research on Prelude VE % a few years back. I found a link on autospeed.com that listed the peak VE% for a H22 and F20C. They listed the H22 at 102% VE at peak HP rpm, while the F20C was 112% VE also at peak HP rpm. The B16-B18C's should lie somewhere between the two. BTW the autospeed link gets it's info from an SAE paper that was done by a groupd of Honda engineers. So I would say the source is pretty good, hehehe.
http://autospeed.drive.com.au/...=1127
10-22-2005, 10:31 PM
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Re: (Gordon Liddy)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Gordon Liddy »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
that's cause they rev to 8k, right?</TD></TR></TABLE>
no...it's just cause you suck that hard, that it pulls air into the engine
that's cause they rev to 8k, right?</TD></TR></TABLE>
no...it's just cause you suck that hard, that it pulls air into the engine
10-23-2005, 05:11 AM
#23
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Re: (rhd)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by rhd »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">no...it's just cause you suck that hard, that it pulls air into the engine </TD></TR></TABLE>
yeah dude like totally
</TD></TR></TABLE>yeah dude like totally
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