futrhondaownr

get the car running everythings great runs fine get it to the dyno make a few pulls pull it off head to the track, mid way threw 4th heard weird noise cut the car off and coasted, get toed back to the pits start looking over everything and we cant turn the motor over. when we get home take the motor apart all the pistons are melted, and after going over the log it went dead lean 3rd and 4th gear. but on the dyno it was all good didnt turn the boost up or anything, after countless hours going over everything fuel wise (testing pump, lines, filters, tank, ect) come to find out u cant use q16 with them wtf????? i would think if i was paying 900 bucks for some injectors it would tell u if u ****ing couldnt use them with a certain fuel??? wtf!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i dont get on honda-tech that much after searching and talking to a few people thats how i found out u could not run q16, but on injector dynamics site or tonys, or any one that sells them for that matters site it does not say **** about it???

http://www.t1raceparts.com/en/produc.../id2000-b.html

* Finally, a great solution for people that need more than 1500cc/min!!
* The new Injector Dynamics ID2000 flows 2200cc/min at 3 bar (43.5psi) and is high impedance. That means no injector resistor or injector driver is needed. With the capability of running up to 130psi and flowing 3700cc/min, the needs for running multiple injectors per cylinder are gone on all but the most demanding methanol applications.
* With the most linear flow in it’s class, great atomization and full injector dead time information provided, there really is no competition for the ID2000. Check out this video to see how well they run in a worst case scenario, a bone stock 120hp car!
* Each injector includes the necessary adaptor top and electrical connector. The adaptor tops mechanically lock to the injector and also incorporate a 7 micron replaceable filter.
* Pricing is per set of 4 injectors and fits Honda B/D/F/H series motors.
* Visit www.InjectorDynamics.com for more information.

http://www.injectordynamics.com/ID2000.html

The ID2000 fills out the Injector Dynamics range by providing as much as 3700cc/min at 130 psi. For you monster power methanol guys, that means 1 injector per cylinder for all but the most demanding applications.
For those of you who need more flow than an ID1000 at 100 psi, the ID2000 fits the bill nicely and will deliver 2200cc/min at 43.5 psi. (3 bar)
And...it will do it with the same low pulsewidth extension as the ID1000.
What that means to you is the extra fuel you need without sacrificng the bottom end, or a large investment in the fuel delivery system.
Note: To determine the horsepower

AbitAvenger

Crazy....

madblkscientist

that sucs i would b so pissed that i might have done sumthing illeagal like smoke weed to relax and look 4 the guy da next day who sold dem 2 me

SPOOLINmatt

sorry for your loss, i knew about this when i bought mine but i dont plan on using MTBE fuels

90teg

Wow, that definitely sucks. I didn't know you couldn't use that fuel.

a1320addict

iTrader: (1)

Who did you purchase them from?

LowBudgetBEe

wow, that sucks....so i guess c16 is fine

tony1

Sorry for your troubles, but it doesn't work that way. The injectors don't fail or lock up when used with Q16. Over the course of about 10 minutes, the valve swells to a certain point and stabilizes, at which flow is around 1300-1400cc/min. This would all happen during dyno tuning. They do not deteriorate or fail. One of the first cars I tuned on the ID2000's was on Q16 and it still running 9.50's to this day, 5 months later.

I can understand you wanting to blame a part for your engine failure, but the reality is that if it 'went dead lean in 3rd and 4th gear', something else is to blame.

For gas applications, we recommend C16 or C23. E85 and Methanol are also compatible. The only trouble fuels are Q16, VP Import and possibly any other oxygenated gasolines.

SovXietday

Sounds like you lost the vacuum line on the FPR or something.

Not to mention you should have had a WBO2 log and lean protection set up on the car.

bads2k

Hey Tony how does the c23 compare to c16 in your opinion? I will also be running these injectors.

Tony the Tiger

Is this issue only for ID2000's, or for all ID injectors as well?

I know my local source of race fuel is an unleaded and oxygenated fuel with pretty good octane, and the cost is pretty good as well. I know there is MTBE in the fuel I use, and it would suck if I run into the same issues with my ID1000's... I'd be f*cking pissed just to find this out now after I have recommended so many ID injectors to my customers who all would use oxygenated fuels.

tony1

C23 is good stuff. A little expensive and probably overkill for 85% of the Honda guys, but extra insurance if you want it. I run it on my car for a little extra piece of mind. 50+psi on gas, a little extra octane never hurts. People are quick to forget about C16, it's an awesome fuel and was 'the' fuel to have for years. As i've stated before, i've run C16 and Q16 back to back on my car at the track and saw no difference in ET or MPH once the a/f ratio was dialed in for each fuel. Q16 is highly corrosive and hard on engine parts because of it. VP now recommends that it's drained from the fuel system when not in use. Q16 is a good fuel, don't get me wrong, but it's 'high' maintenance and there are plenty of other options that make the same power without the downsides.

tony1

This ONLY applies to the ID2000. The valve of the ID2000 is rubber, the valve of the 725 and 1000 is steel and is compatible with all fuels.

alpha

Even if this was an ID2000 with Q16 issue. Your tuner should have brought this up. I will not say names but one of the first people to actually start using ID2000's made well over 1000whp on Q16. Pull after pull. Nothing happened but noticing they were running out of fuel quicker than the previous 1600cc in the car. If your tuner was competent and tuned on a regular basis he would know this as well

What fuel pump(s) were you running?
What was base pressure without the vacuum line?
How much boost were you running?
How did you test the pump(s)?
Can you post your logs?

Like I said. Many have made over 1000whp with these injectors on Q16 WITHOUT issues

alpha

Tony. Methanol is ok too Over 2000whp calculated with the ID2000's last week

JDM JEFFREY

iTrader: (1)

WOW
subscribed

Glove

so ID injectors are a thing of the past now?

what is the new bandwagon to jump on?

kinda sucks that you cant use race gas on the ID's,

good to know

redboost10

you can use race gas on the id's, just not q16 or import

mikesrex

wow so much drama over injectors!

hope the OP can get the car back together and put up some good numbers!

robbieshonda

Are the logs showing the injector duty cycles at 0 like the injectors shut off. Or the pump fail ect? Ive been using these injectors on quite a few cars subies, evos, hondas ect without a hitch even on Q16. Doesnt sound like the injectors fail sounds like something supplying the injectors failed. Its fix. Send them to tony or deatschwerks and have them tested.

HRTuning

I'd look at the logs again. Check duty cycle and check boost pressure to make sure you didn't overboost and that you were at your target pressure. Also, if you have dual maps setup, make sure it was on the correct set of maps.

HamiltonRex

fic makes a 2150cc injector.. well its just another bosch one. just when they sell it they state the oxygenated fuel warning... there also cheaper then the 2000 ID.

tony1

There are lots of rumors floating around (put out there by other guys that sell injectors) that other people have the same injectors as our ID2000, they're just not matched by the same process. This is correct, except the rest of the rumor is that the consistency from Bosch is so good that our dynamic matching process doesn't have any benefit. Unfortunately, this is far from the truth.

This is a deviation vs. pulsewidth chart for every 10th injector out of a batch. You can see that while static flow variance is pretty good, there is quite a spread at 2msec pulsewidth, where much of the life of the injector is spent and where you really see and feel a difference from cylinder to cylinder variations. About a 2% spread at static flow (which is where most people have the ability to test halfway accurately) and as much as a 13% spread at 2msec. Do you think a 13% variance from cylinder to cylinder at idle and part throttle will make a difference in how a car runs?



i609.photobucket.com/albums/tt173/t1race/2000_Spread.jpg

Here's a matched set of 6. It looks like there are only 4 lines on the graph, but there are actually 6, some are just so similar they pretty much overlay.



i609.photobucket.com/albums/tt173/t1race/2000_Matched.jpg

alpha

HiProfile

I feel bad this happened, but I can see lots of other things to look at. Did all your tuning happen on a non-loaded dyno? If you went from that to the track with slicks and didn't change a thing, that alone can change your tune. There's also the fact many aftermarket fpr's have failed on ppl, same for weldon/bosch/walbro pumps.

Hell it could even be slightly leaky valve seals if you have old CP's in them... (not many will get that joke )