Hypothetical--What Turbo for Low Boost 4.4 Liter?
03-07-2009, 12:25 PM
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Hypothetical--What Turbo for Low Boost 4.4 Liter?
I'm just doing a little pondering here, and I thought I could probably gain some useful insight from some of you guys on here.
So the idea is, on a 4.4 liter V-8, running a single turbo setup that achieves two objectives:
1) Kind of softish onset of boost. Not a harsh spool that really spikes the torque hard at a low RPM. The idea is to have a manageable detonation situation with around 10:1 compression (and lowish boost).
2) Good efficiency at low pressure ratios, such that this setup could achieve a target of 450 to 500 wheel horsepower, redlining probably around 6,500 or so. Ideally, torque would be kept down to less than the horsepower number. I'm thinking this indicates a pretty large hotside so far. . . This engine in normally aspirated trim ordinarily produces around 300 crank HP at something close to 6k RPMs for peak power, and the idea would be to keep those same cams with the turbo.
Compact physical size is good in this case, as packaging is a challenge. Lower cost is always better of course, and since low RPM spool isn't necessarily a bonus, inexpensive journal bearing center sections sound good.
If you guys are willing to discuss this hypo with these parameters, and without getting into a lot of other specifics, I'd really appreciate it. To my way of thinking, a turbo doesn't care what brand of engine it's attached to!
Thanks in advance! ! ! !
So the idea is, on a 4.4 liter V-8, running a single turbo setup that achieves two objectives:
1) Kind of softish onset of boost. Not a harsh spool that really spikes the torque hard at a low RPM. The idea is to have a manageable detonation situation with around 10:1 compression (and lowish boost).
2) Good efficiency at low pressure ratios, such that this setup could achieve a target of 450 to 500 wheel horsepower, redlining probably around 6,500 or so. Ideally, torque would be kept down to less than the horsepower number. I'm thinking this indicates a pretty large hotside so far. . . This engine in normally aspirated trim ordinarily produces around 300 crank HP at something close to 6k RPMs for peak power, and the idea would be to keep those same cams with the turbo.
Compact physical size is good in this case, as packaging is a challenge. Lower cost is always better of course, and since low RPM spool isn't necessarily a bonus, inexpensive journal bearing center sections sound good.
If you guys are willing to discuss this hypo with these parameters, and without getting into a lot of other specifics, I'd really appreciate it. To my way of thinking, a turbo doesn't care what brand of engine it's attached to!
Thanks in advance! ! ! !
03-07-2009, 04:50 PM
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Re: Hypothetical--What Turbo for Low Boost 4.4 Liter?
What engine are we talking about here, i think the design of the engine will dictate if it makes more tq than hp or vise versa, not the turbo.
This would also be better posted in tech/misc since its "theory"
This would also be better posted in tech/misc since its "theory"
03-07-2009, 05:05 PM
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Re: Hypothetical--What Turbo for Low Boost 4.4 Liter?
It's a forced induction topic for sure. . . Aren't a lot of the threads on here hypothetical? People just don't state that all of the time.
BMW 4.4 liter V-8, 32 valves. N/A horsepower and compression ratio stated above. I still don't think the brand really matters a lot.
BMW 4.4 liter V-8, 32 valves. N/A horsepower and compression ratio stated above. I still don't think the brand really matters a lot.
03-07-2009, 06:16 PM
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Re: Hypothetical--What Turbo for Low Boost 4.4 Liter?
That's sort of along the lines of what I was thinking too, but I thought someone might come up with something known for its lower pressure ratio behavior more than the s372 is, and maybe something a little less huge as far as packaging goes. . .
03-07-2009, 07:12 PM
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Re: Hypothetical--What Turbo for Low Boost 4.4 Liter?
Honestly if you have a goal or a desired setup please state so and people can further help you form there, if you want to discuss "what if's" seriously your in the wrong section.
03-07-2009, 07:35 PM
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Re: Hypothetical--What Turbo for Low Boost 4.4 Liter?
I answered your previous question, and these questions are answered in my first post. Not sure I understand what you're getting at.
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03-07-2009, 08:29 PM
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Re: Hypothetical--What Turbo for Low Boost 4.4 Liter?
You want a smaller turbo, well you can have one, a gt35r or sc61 can make the power your looking for, but on such a large engine they will spool up pretty quick and your torque will peak early, you have decide what you value more, we can't have all the things we want all the time so just go with whats most important to you.
03-08-2009, 05:10 AM
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Re: Hypothetical--What Turbo for Low Boost 4.4 Liter?
Yeah, that probably would do nicely, but I'm really interested in going through the process of trying to figure this out as a single turbo setup. With twins, not only do you have close to double the cost in turbo components, you have a different type of added complexity in the plumbing, double the sources of problems, and the turbos probably have to be mounted low, thus making the drain a problem.
Hah hah, a turbo'd M5 would be INSANE! Mine is a 540i with an M5 look front bumper cover on it. It's nice, but it's no M5. If I did end up turboing it, I'll have to get a LSD for it, and I'll probably go with adapting in an M5 LSD. I think I can run this sucker pretty well on MegaSquirt, at least close enough to trouble free for the fuel side, so I'm giving it a little thought. . . .
Those are pretty much my thoughts too, so it seems like an s372 or maybe a t4 SC61 of some description then? I understand that the SC61 would probably still spool a bit faster, even with a large-ish t4 hot side, but I'm a pretty big fan of those as a great bang for the buck turbo (well, the t3 ones anyway, I actually don't know what t4 ones cost?).
Thanks for the input everyone, this is a fun idea for me to ponder, other than it is going to be hard to resist doing, and this was supposed to be my "keep it close to stock and drive it to work" car. . . . Heh.
Hah hah, a turbo'd M5 would be INSANE! Mine is a 540i with an M5 look front bumper cover on it. It's nice, but it's no M5. If I did end up turboing it, I'll have to get a LSD for it, and I'll probably go with adapting in an M5 LSD. I think I can run this sucker pretty well on MegaSquirt, at least close enough to trouble free for the fuel side, so I'm giving it a little thought. . . .
. . . with a goal of such little power (450-500 out of a boosted v8) some people might urge you to get something small but since you say you don't want something thats going to spike your tq curve i think a big turbo like as mentioned the s372 would be a nice option, granted it is good for much much much more than 450-500whp.
You want a smaller turbo, well you can have one, a gt35r or sc61 can make the power your looking for, but on such a large engine they will spool up pretty quick and your torque will peak early, you have decide what you value more, we can't have all the things we want all the time so just go with whats most important to you.
You want a smaller turbo, well you can have one, a gt35r or sc61 can make the power your looking for, but on such a large engine they will spool up pretty quick and your torque will peak early, you have decide what you value more, we can't have all the things we want all the time so just go with whats most important to you.
Thanks for the input everyone, this is a fun idea for me to ponder, other than it is going to be hard to resist doing, and this was supposed to be my "keep it close to stock and drive it to work" car. . . . Heh.
03-08-2009, 05:22 AM
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Re: Hypothetical--What Turbo for Low Boost 4.4 Liter?
I hope you don't have a wife lol, honestly though do you have another car thats fixed up? I am a firm believer that your daily should remain 99% stock, i drive an Acura CL type S every day, its hard to resist but i even have stock wheels!! Only an AEM CAI and audio. Every time i go from my civic back to my CL i thank god i never touched the CL.
03-08-2009, 05:32 AM
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Re: Hypothetical--What Turbo for Low Boost 4.4 Liter?
Strangely, it was my wife who caused me to buy the 540. . . . My other car is my Neon autocrosser that has the SC61 on it, running on the latest MS2Extra Beta code (whatever is current for testing at the moment). I think she was just too embarrassed by me driving that thing. Here's it's fist time going straight ahead:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=er7yvjwiqr8
I was planning to put the Eagles and Wisecos in a more boostable bottom end for it this spring, but I'm just not sure I'm feeling it. The Bimmer is really nice to drive.
Anyway, she (my wife) seems oddly okay with me messing with the BMW. I can't explain it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=er7yvjwiqr8
I was planning to put the Eagles and Wisecos in a more boostable bottom end for it this spring, but I'm just not sure I'm feeling it. The Bimmer is really nice to drive.
Anyway, she (my wife) seems oddly okay with me messing with the BMW. I can't explain it.
Last edited by Tjabo; 03-08-2009 at 06:04 AM.
03-08-2009, 08:43 AM
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Re: Hypothetical--What Turbo for Low Boost 4.4 Liter?
I think an S362 would be a decent match for your goals. It will probably be in the 14-17psi range to hit your 500whp power goal, but that's not too bad. You could step up to the S366 / S366XL if you're worried about running lower boost levels.
03-08-2009, 09:17 AM
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Re: Hypothetical--What Turbo for Low Boost 4.4 Liter?
Thanks for the thoughtful input guys!
I was just out doing a little maintenance type stuff on that car, and man, when you actually look at how to route the exhaust. . . . . It's tight. Obviously from the content of this thread you can tell that I don't want to think about twin turbos, but I'm going to give it some more thought. There's space that looks like it could be made available ahead of each side of the engine. I don't know though, packaging is UGLY!
Anyway, thanks again!
I was just out doing a little maintenance type stuff on that car, and man, when you actually look at how to route the exhaust. . . . . It's tight. Obviously from the content of this thread you can tell that I don't want to think about twin turbos, but I'm going to give it some more thought. There's space that looks like it could be made available ahead of each side of the engine. I don't know though, packaging is UGLY!
Anyway, thanks again!
03-08-2009, 07:19 PM
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Re: Hypothetical--What Turbo for Low Boost 4.4 Liter?
I think the turbo could fit up where the air cleaner is (on mine it's only on the passenger's side), or even there AND where the oil filter currently is for twins, but routing the exhaust would suck. . . . either way.
03-08-2009, 10:56 PM
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Re: Hypothetical--What Turbo for Low Boost 4.4 Liter?
Low mounted or rear turbochargers with electric oil pumps.
They don't have to be in the bay.
They don't have to be in the bay.
03-09-2009, 06:22 AM
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Re: Hypothetical--What Turbo for Low Boost 4.4 Liter?
I don't really like the idea of a rear mount turbo much, but I confess that I have thought about it a bit with this car. There is a huge space in the rear where the gigantic stock muffler was. I think you could get away with using the stock headers (double walled I guess) and probably a fair amount of the stock exhaust. I'd probably run a slightly more responsive turbo I suppose if I was going to try a setup like this, but as I think about it, I'm really wondering if the additional lag would be as significant as it initially seems. . . .
So, I've first got to get control of the engine management situation AT LEAST to the point that I can control the fuel, and then maybe I'll start to really consider an installation of some sort. Apparently my540 has one of the worst factory ECUs to gain control of, but I'm gathering that the M5s might be a bit better off in that regard. I'm thinking pretty hard about doing a MegaSquirt2Extra install on this thing. First I need to get a wideband in it and see what's going on with the N/A fueling situation.
Thanks again for the input everyone!
So, I've first got to get control of the engine management situation AT LEAST to the point that I can control the fuel, and then maybe I'll start to really consider an installation of some sort. Apparently my540 has one of the worst factory ECUs to gain control of, but I'm gathering that the M5s might be a bit better off in that regard. I'm thinking pretty hard about doing a MegaSquirt2Extra install on this thing. First I need to get a wideband in it and see what's going on with the N/A fueling situation.
Thanks again for the input everyone!
03-09-2009, 12:50 PM
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03-09-2009, 01:01 PM
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Re: Hypothetical--What Turbo for Low Boost 4.4 Liter?
A 3 liter but still a BMW.
http://img532.imageshack.us/my.php?i...nodaymabi4.flv
http://img532.imageshack.us/my.php?i...nodaymamq4.flv
http://img532.imageshack.us/my.php?i...nodaymawk9.flv
http://img532.imageshack.us/my.php?i...nodaymacc1.flv
http://img532.imageshack.us/my.php?i...nodaymabz1.flv
It appears he can't tune very well there is so much improving he has to do, since his AFR's are all over the place.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBdVBehCRQU
Originally Posted by ritos530i
First, let me say this damn car has been a nightmare and I wish that no one would ever attempt to do what I am doing to this car. The car has literally been through hell and back. I have all sorts of issues with the car from boost leaks, crankcase pressurizing, crankcase lightly leaking, Finish tuning of my current setup. Now I did not realize any of this because I do not know what to look for until I drive the car three hours away and smoke was everywhere on the highway and pretty much burnt all the oil by the time I arrive to dyno day. Well of course, you know I was not going to dyno and in fact, I was more concern whether the car was ok and would make it back home. I filled the car with some oil, changed the breather on the crankcase, and let it sit all day. Well after hours of sitting and being access by the shop members of Bre Motorsports not to mention one of my good friend with his M3. All day everyone said it want hurt anything to just see what the car looks like and it would make it easier for me to access the issues with the tune and car by putting it on the dyno. I was like hell no because I am more concern if I would make it three hours home. Therefore, I spent the whole day watching others dyno their cars and have a good time watching the chic’s in the bikini swimwear wash cars all day. Well, that was until the last minute of the day I said what the Sam Adams and just do it and if it breaks, I can leave it with a good shop and ride home with my buddy.
My setup, 2004 530i E60 with STS Rear mounted turbo half azz put together by me with boost and oil leaks all over the place. Not to mention I tune the car using an AEM FIC and 65lb injectors (Oh I am not a tuner by no means but I did my best) the wastegate spring is only a 5.8-psi spring and for some reason I thought I could turn the boost up to 15psi using a Dual boost controller. Well that did not work because the spring being that small would only allow me to boost to 10-11psi for some reason.
One more thing, I know my AFRs are jacked up and my tune needs a lot of work but I have always been open about my projects even with the most embarrassing things but I can say I learned a lot and help others not to make this mistake by opening up everything for them.
See results in video and photo of dyno sheet. Do not laugh because I am running very little boost, not a great tuner, but I am learning a lot, and not to help me was the Dynamics Dyno, which is an hp killer. I would not advise anyone looking for big numbers to use this dyno is you will be heat broken.First run, all kinds of crap came out of the exhaust (gutted cats two days before), for some reason the dyno reader did not pick up results so there are two videos for the first pass and lean AFRs L
My setup, 2004 530i E60 with STS Rear mounted turbo half azz put together by me with boost and oil leaks all over the place. Not to mention I tune the car using an AEM FIC and 65lb injectors (Oh I am not a tuner by no means but I did my best) the wastegate spring is only a 5.8-psi spring and for some reason I thought I could turn the boost up to 15psi using a Dual boost controller. Well that did not work because the spring being that small would only allow me to boost to 10-11psi for some reason.
One more thing, I know my AFRs are jacked up and my tune needs a lot of work but I have always been open about my projects even with the most embarrassing things but I can say I learned a lot and help others not to make this mistake by opening up everything for them.
See results in video and photo of dyno sheet. Do not laugh because I am running very little boost, not a great tuner, but I am learning a lot, and not to help me was the Dynamics Dyno, which is an hp killer. I would not advise anyone looking for big numbers to use this dyno is you will be heat broken.First run, all kinds of crap came out of the exhaust (gutted cats two days before), for some reason the dyno reader did not pick up results so there are two videos for the first pass and lean AFRs L
http://img532.imageshack.us/my.php?i...nodaymamq4.flv
http://img532.imageshack.us/my.php?i...nodaymawk9.flv
Originally Posted by ritos530i
Second run, the same thing but tried richen up the AFRs and blew off the plug for the crank ventilation block off so oil was spitting out. (Did not know this until after third run)More crap spitting out from gutted cats.
http://img532.imageshack.us/my.php?i...nodaymabz1.flv
It appears he can't tune very well there is so much improving he has to do, since his AFR's are all over the place.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBdVBehCRQU