hp & limits of motors
 

Just wondering...

What is the highest whp anyone has attained with a b series? guessing over 1000whp?

What fails, in order of increasing power? Assuming the aftermarket sleeves don't fail, first is it the rods or pistons, then the crank or crank support block structure? Are there any other weird problems to be aware of also, like the oil pump failure with the n1 pulley thing?
What power levels cause what failures, with what parts/brand of parts? (example, has anyone ever actually broken an Eagle rod? People argue other brands are better, but I've never actually read about a single eagle rod failure..)

Is the problem running out of octane first, thereby limiting power production by detonation? (diesels can run insanely high boost levels, like over 50lbs..) What is the most people have made on methanol?

A weird visual example of cyl press vs parts failure without detonation would be pressurizing the cylinder with a hydraulic pump with the crank locked at the flywheel, what would break first..piston, rod, crank, bottom end breaks off the block, what..

Thanks for any informative answers.. https://honda-tech.com/forums/images...es/emsmile.gif




Modified by rorik at 3:33 AM 9/9/2008

Re: hp & limits of motors (rorik)
 

Try searching H/T for information. A good start would be "Highest whp on a stock block". Other built engine data should be available on postings re: 'Highest whp B16, K series, H22, etc.
Loads placed on a running engine would be much different than a pressurized static (non-running) engine.
Failures tend to be the result of fuel, timing, or out of spec conditions rather than outright part failure.

Re: hp & limits of motors (rorik)
 

I know for sure people have hit 850 whp...with race gas. So I'm going to go on a limb and say 1000 whp isn't out of the question. Parts are not usually what breaks, its usually poor timing, fuel loss, oil loss, etc

Re: hp & limits of motors (rorik)
 

1st to go is the "stock" pistons, the casting doesn't like detonation at all. 2nd is "stock" sleeves. 3rd "stock" rods, and then the "stock" crank would probally be the last to go. Everything that fails with a stock block, seems to be related to detonation more so then "boost" pressure. Some would say the rods are second, but I never heard of anyone saying they bent a stock rod because of to much power. Oil pumps are under alot of stress and don't like to be reved high at all. Aftermarket oil pump gears and running an aftermarket catch can with dash 10 lines will help alot, to rid the motor of crank case pressure. That alone actually helps make power in a turbo motor.

As it stands, i'm sure some of the hod-rod cars or pro-fwd with b-series are making 1000+ fwhp since they can run 74mm+ turbos. Most Honda's make good power in N/A form, so you don't have to run a ton of boost to make power and max out most turbos. I'm from the 4g63 camp, and everyone fast seems to be running 45-60 psi now in days. In just about all of the street classes, the standard turbo wouldn't flow enough to make 1000+fwhp anyway since there limited to a 72mm turbo. I know someone out there with a BW 372 with the race housing, is reading this thinking other wise. I read something on Eggums car in Drag Mag. I believe. She was running a decent amount of boost, but that was on meth.

Eagle rods have been pushed to 1000+ whp on a 4g63. Dave Bucshur even went on record to say they're given a bad rep. He has used Crowers and Eagles, but he has never had to resize an Eagle rod for an engine build. He has had to do that to some of the Crowers he's used. In my old "built" block, I used Eagle rods and J/E pistons. Some would also say J/E don't last in 4g63 motors, but they've been a blessing to me. I never dynoed my car, but have run a 35r at 35 psi. I've run a 30r at 30 psi, and a 20g at 29.4 psi w/ a 100 shot on that block. Now the motor is just sitting in my room looking for something to do, it sill works. My friend Ben has used Eagles to make his 780 fwhp on the dyno with a stock bore gsr, and never had a problum with the rods. Brian Fisher also uses Eagles in his car and it makes over 800 fwhp. Most people just feel better with using another rod, as Eagles are really cheap. Knowone could blame them for that. Older versions of the eagle rods used to have smaller rod bolts and did fail and spin rod bearings. Eagle rods have bent in some motors, knowone can tell you absolutely why. Not that it matters because, just about any rod company has had a rod be bent in someone's motor. That's also why you must trust your engine builder, because he's the one who will build you something that'll last with good tunning.

I hope that helped, that's atleast what I think. http://is.rely.net/1-92-29998-l-1gbM...AmVuBW3hGg.gif

I remember reading an article about building up GM's ecotec motor for almost 1000hp, and the order in which parts failed. That was years ago too, so I know people are making more than that now. It was a pretty interesting article though.

I also read extensively on here, but my question is a little more than the typical highest hp with stock block, or stock sleeves kind of thing. I'm asking what fails at extreme power levels with high quality aftermarket parts, with a proper tune.
What power level does the crank support structure of the block become inadequate?
The hydraulic pressure in the cylinder analogy isn't perfect obviously, with the running motor, you have varying cylinder press vs crank angle, which would affect what and how things would break. But it is still sort of interesting to think what would break if you say, locked the crank at the flywheel end at something like 25 degrees past tdc and then pressurized the cylinder.

your wallet is the limit..................

Re: (rorik)
 

you really need to PM stephanie eggum, im pretty sure she breaks alot of shit and could tell you the exact order in which things break

I remember jg engine dynamics back in the day building engines with 11-13k rpm redlines, what does it take to be able to rev that high reliably? 1000hp at 12k rpm is only 437 ft/lbs of torque. So that is doable, provided the motor can take that rpm. I know eagle makes titanium rods, what valvetrain components exist that can take that rpm reliably also? Are there any companies that make titanium rocker arms for the b series?
I know there is a kit that reduces the reciprocating mass of the valvetrain at the expense of vtec.. I'm not interested in that. It's 2008, the more technology, the better..

Re: (rorik)
 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by rorik &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I remember jg engine dynamics back in the day building engines with 11-13k rpm redlines, what does it take to be able to rev that high reliably? 1000hp at 12k rpm is only 437 ft/lbs of torque. So that is doable, provided the motor can take that rpm. I know eagle makes titanium rods, what valvetrain components exist that can take that rpm reliably also? Are there any companies that make titanium rocker arms for the b series?
I know there is a kit that reduces the reciprocating mass of the valvetrain at the expense of vtec.. I'm not interested in that. It's 2008, the more technology, the better.. </TD></TR></TABLE>

are you trying to build a formula series car ? whats the purpose or this build ? it doesnt sound like a drag car but more like a road race build.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by rorik &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I remember jg engine dynamics back in the day building engines with 11-13k rpm redlines, what does it take to be able to rev that high reliably? </TD></TR></TABLE>
spoon also build very high reving engines in that range and make parts for it. check them out

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by rorik &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">1000hp at 12k rpm is only 437 ft/lbs of torque. So that is doable, provided the motor can take that rpm. </TD></TR></TABLE>
ummm that doesnt even sound reliable with the parts currently availible to make those numbers.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by rorik &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> I know eagle makes titanium rods, what valvetrain components exist that can take that rpm reliably also? Are there any companies that make titanium rocker arms for the b series?
</TD></TR></TABLE>

i believe spoon sales them for $1200 a set https://honda-tech.com/forums/images...es/emsmile.gif
also you will want an incrediblely balanced engine. spoon had problems with ignition break-up and spark blow out at RPM's over 11,500. they ruled that it was due to engine vibration so they started making there own custom block gridles which sale for an arm and leg. http://www.tokyo-express.co.uk...p.htm

you just gotta search around https://honda-tech.com/forums/images/smilies/emthup.gif hope you find what your looking for