SuperTeg95

For those of you who actually dynotune cars, how do you know how to tune cam gears. Do you just make a guess on the advance or retard and see what happens or is there a way to "tune" cam gears?

dornon13

i have always wondered about this bump for info

AspectIndustries

SuperTeg95

bump for a little help.

Mase

you have to try different combinations.

every setup is different, especially when u start changing the deck height, etc.

SuperTeg95

well that's why I was curious. My block and head have both been resurfaced so the gears don't line up correctly. I know the best way is dyno tuning but just wondered if there was a "standard" for tuning cam gears.

seen4ever

i think its more of only adjust one gear at a time and only in very small amounts.

So you would first advance the intake cam 1 degree. then retard the exhaust cam 1 degree. then repeat with different combo's. Although i can't say where the limit is, as when you advance intake and retard exhaust, you are decreasing the piston to valve clearances.

my next trip to the dyno, i wanted to play around with mine. I know you don't really gain alot of peak power, but you move the torque curve around and change the area under the curve. So it will be good to overlay each dyno run on the other to see what's the best option.

This is the way i understand it to be best to tune cam gears, open for any and all suggestions.

I wonder if oversize valves come into play with how much you can adjust and which cams you run. ie ITR cams will be different than GSRs.

Andrea

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by seen4ever &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I know you don't really gain alot of peak power, but you move the torque curve around and change the area under the curve. So it will be good to overlay each dyno run on the other to see what's the best option. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Actually, a lot of power gains can be found from doing cam gear adjustments. Here is a graph of a car that Jeff Evans (boosted hybrid) tuned that shows the before and after of cam gear adjustments.



100whp gain from making adjustments.

slipstream

i just thought about if it is better to adjust the valves before or after retard/advance the cam gears...

093turbo16

iTrader: (2)

Usually what I do with cars with cam gears. Is do what the guy already stated. Just start with one side, and then do the other, and just try lots of combinations. When you find the right one, you will know. You just have to mess around with them.

shortyz

http://www.boosted-hybrid.com/viewtopic.php?t=1744

seen4ever

what about getting timing back to 16 when adjusting the cam gears. If you advance the intake 4 degrees, doesn't that mean you need to break out the timing light and get the dizzy back in sync to 16?

0mtber

iTrader: (2)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by seen4ever &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">what about getting timing back to 16 when adjusting the cam gears. If you advance the intake 4 degrees, doesn't that mean you need to break out the timing light and get the dizzy back in sync to 16?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Any time you adjust the intake cam timing you need to re-sync your ignition timing...

mike1114

iTrader: (1)

why don't most tuners tune the Cams then?

I've been to the dyno three times, three different tuners/dynos and none of them ever touched the cam gears.

Is this something you have to specify?????? I would think a "tune" on a dyno would involve anything that can be tuned and measured on the dyno??????

seen4ever

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mtber &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Any time you adjust the intake cam timing you need to re-sync your ignition timing... </TD></TR></TABLE>

I assumed so, but just wanted to make sure.

for time saving purposes, do you guys just losen the dizzy and adjust or do you just timing light and then change the overall value of timing in hondata, then go back later and set to 16. I figured that might save a little time on the dyno.

dasher

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mike1114 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">why don't most tuners tune the Cams then?

I've been to the dyno three times, three different tuners/dynos and none of them ever touched the cam gears.

Is this something you have to specify?????? I would think a "tune" on a dyno would involve anything that can be tuned and measured on the dyno??????</TD></TR></TABLE>

Mike , its because most of the time, on turbocharged hondas, moving the cam gears around isn't worth your time unless the head has been milled or modified.

I asked Mase to tune my cam gears and we tested every single position possible +/- 2 degree's with just small changes in graph of shifts of +/- 2-4 whp and no overall benefit. I basically wasted on hour of dyno tuning playing with those things and next time I change my timing belt I'm going to throw my stock gears back on to sell the AEM gears.

dasher

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Andrea &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Actually, a lot of power gains can be found from doing cam gear adjustments. Here is a graph of a car that Jeff Evans (boosted hybrid) tuned that shows the before and after of cam gear adjustments.



100whp gain from making adjustments. </TD></TR></TABLE>

I suspect the 30-50 whp gains(not 100- the base run was not rev'd as high) with that dyno were because of the head be milled, valves not adjusted to factory spec, or just an oddball head from factory. These results are not typical.

Andrea

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by dasher &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I suspect the 30-50 whp gains(not 100- the base run was not rev'd as high) with that dyno were because of the head be milled, valves not adjusted to factory spec, or just an oddball head from factory. These results are not typical. </TD></TR></TABLE>

We've actually seen minimum gains of approximately 30-40whp from cam gear adjustments on several customers' cars that have come into the shop in the past two months or so. This was not the only car with impressive results. To us, these minimum gains are typical on most cars where adjustments are made, but I guess you would know better given your experience with tuning cam gears.

dasher

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Andrea &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> To us, these minimum gains are typical on most cars where adjustments are made, but I guess you would know better given your experience with tuning cam gears. </TD></TR></TABLE>

No, I don't tune cars for a living but I know and speak to other tuners on a regular basis who tune engines for a living.

Are you absolutely sure your customers did a valve adjustment right before the dyno tune and set the clearances to factory specs?

Are you absolutely sure these heads were not milled?

Were your customers using an EL tubular manifold with a graduated collector or a log manifold? ---- This could be the case since I was running a tubular manifold, when I tuned my cam gears, and log manifolds would have more to gain from cam gears.

What engines(b, d , h , f ?) did you see these tremendous gains from out of curiosity?

seen4ever

the dyno they posted is a log manifold, they said that. But i agree its no where near a 100whp gain, as they reved it 600rpms more.

i just know with my topmount manifold, the things flowing pretty well and wondered if its even worth the cost of the dyno time to play around with them, especially if i'm breaking out the timing light every few minutes and adjusting the timing and getting the car to idle at 500rpms with the IACV unplugged.

SOHC_MShue

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by seen4ever &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I assumed so, but just wanted to make sure.

for time saving purposes, do you guys just losen the dizzy and adjust or do you just timing light and then change the overall value of timing in hondata, then go back later and set to 16. I figured that might save a little time on the dyno.</TD></TR></TABLE>
you can adjust it either way. It really doesn't take long to rotate the dizzy though

boosted hybrid

I can guarentee that the car that the dyno plot was posted had proper OEM valve adjustment done. The head was milled only to clean up the surface by Endyn. The owner races SFWD/T4 and is a competent engine builder, as he has built several other high whp SFWD/T4 engines for other customers in the area. It would be a huge coincidence that 30+ customers get huge gains from cam gear adjustments, and they all have improper valve clearance, severly milled heads or just "odd ball" heads.

He was using a prostreet t3 manifold, not a log. He was using a t3/60-1 with the t31 wheel in it. We "happened" to get 640whp out of it at 25psi, which to my knowledge no one has been able to do before. They are rated at low to mid 500whp range, and i happened to get close to another 100whp out of the set-up. I dont just pull another 80-100whp out of my *** while tuning, and his block and head combination isnt anything high dollar or amazing. The graph that was posted wasnt 100whp gains, it was in the neighborhood of 70-80whp, with 40-50 ft-lbs and that was the low boost setting of 14lbs.

I can bet you any amount of money that EL manifolds get higher gains than log manifolds. I tune cam gears everyday with customers, i see it everyday. I have seen regularly 50whp+ out of cam gear tuning on multiple customers cars, as well as huge midrange and low end gains. I could post before and after comparisions all day long proving my point, but that wouldnt satisfy honda-tech members. You can continue to believe what you feel is correct, but i have actual proof day in and day out what works. You're just guessing what works, or listening to hear-say.

BTW, the top mount manifolds dont gain anywhere as much as the prostreet with cam gears. I have seen this firsthand on 4-5 customers cars that are running similar sized turbos to customers running prostreet manifolds, there is an additional 10-30whp worth of gains but nothing significant. The longer runners of the top mount have a lower EX pressure, giving closer to 1:1 ratio between IN/EX, so scavenging isnt as significant when adjusting gears.

dasher

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by boosted hybrid &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I can guarentee that the car that the dyno plot was posted had proper OEM valve adjustment done. The head was milled only to clean up the surface by Endyn. The owner races SFWD/T4 and is a competent engine builder, as he has built several other high whp SFWD/T4 engines for other customers in the area. It would be a huge coincidence that 30+ customers get huge gains from cam gear adjustments, and they all have improper valve clearance, severly milled heads or just "odd ball" heads.

He was using a prostreet t3 manifold, not a log. He was using a t3/60-1 with the t31 wheel in it. We "happened" to get 640whp out of it at 25psi, which to my knowledge no one has been able to do before. They are rated at low to mid 500whp range, and i happened to get close to another 100whp out of the set-up. I dont just pull another 80-100whp out of my *** while tuning, and his block and head combination isnt anything high dollar or amazing. The graph that was posted wasnt 100whp gains, it was in the neighborhood of 70-80whp, with 40-50 ft-lbs and that was the low boost setting of 14lbs.

I can bet you any amount of money that EL manifolds get higher gains than log manifolds. I tune cam gears everyday with customers, i see it everyday. I have seen regularly 50whp+ out of cam gear tuning on multiple customers cars, as well as huge midrange and low end gains. I could post before and after comparisions all day long proving my point, but that wouldnt satisfy honda-tech members. You can continue to believe what you feel is correct, but i have actual proof day in and day out what works. You're just guessing what works, or listening to hear-say.

BTW, the top mount manifolds dont gain anywhere as much as the prostreet with cam gears. I have seen this firsthand on 4-5 customers cars that are running similar sized turbos to customers running prostreet manifolds, there is an additional 10-30whp worth of gains but nothing significant. The longer runners of the top mount have a lower EX pressure, giving closer to 1:1 ratio between IN/EX, so scavenging isnt as significant when adjusting gears.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Seems to me that I'm the one who is wrong or have an oddball motor in that case.
When tuning the cam gears I tried every combination +-2 degrees. One thing I noticed is that we didn't reset the timing to 16 via the distributor after every adjustment. Could this be the problem. Thanks.

mike1114

iTrader: (1)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by dasher &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Seems to me that I'm the one who is wrong or have an oddball motor in that case.
When tuning the cam gears I tried every combination +-2 degrees. One thing I noticed is that we didn't reset the timing to 16 via the distributor after every adjustment. Could this be the problem. Thanks.</TD></TR></TABLE>

&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;wondering also!!!!

boosted hybrid

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by dasher &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Seems to me that I'm the one who is wrong or have an oddball motor in that case.
When tuning the cam gears I tried every combination +-2 degrees. One thing I noticed is that we didn't reset the timing to 16 via the distributor after every adjustment. Could this be the problem. Thanks.</TD></TR></TABLE>

You have to compensate intake gear change via the distributor or the software.