how to retrieve the stock honda timing map in stock ecu?
06-06-2004, 04:24 PM
#1
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how to retrieve the stock honda timing map in stock ecu?
i am currently running AEM EMS, but my timing map needs to be tuned. i've yet to setup my knock table cuz when i datalog my knock raw i get a bunch of 3.9 volt spikes no matter how much timing i pull.....and this is with 5 bottles of octane booster in 1/3 tank of gas. audiblely i can't hear knock......i also have a external wastegate and i dont know if this is causing an effect on engine noise which i dont think it should. so i cannot use the knock controll to help tune my timing map yet. gotta figure out whatup with my knock sensor first.
anyways....i know a bunch of u are using the uberdata or chrome....or whatever, but is there a way i can pull the timing map from my honda ecu? i currently running a drag turbo kit w/ black top DSM injectors(450cc) and stock map sensor w/ AEM EMS & AEM UEGO.
i was running 7psi on the 12:1 FMU before and i didn't have any detonation issues, i'd like to run the STOCK HONDA TIMING MAP again up to 5-6psi then start retarding .75 degrees of timing or more per pound of boost while maintaining a 11.5 air:fuel across the whole rpm range under WOT. right now i'm running 10-9.9 psi, but i feel as if the FMU setup @ 7psi was stronger.....i ran a stock 350Z on the fmu setup and pulled on him, now w/ AEM EMS @10-9.9psi i raced him again...this time he had cold air intake and crank pulley, and he inched away from me from a slow roll. and this happened everytime......my air:fuel is in the 11.5's now.....so it has to be all in my timing map, i should have pulled on him!
PLEASE HELP!
i need my stock timing map out of my honda ecu, what means do i have to get this?
BTW......this is on a 99 accord I4 5spd.
thanks in advance for all help.
anyways....i know a bunch of u are using the uberdata or chrome....or whatever, but is there a way i can pull the timing map from my honda ecu? i currently running a drag turbo kit w/ black top DSM injectors(450cc) and stock map sensor w/ AEM EMS & AEM UEGO.
i was running 7psi on the 12:1 FMU before and i didn't have any detonation issues, i'd like to run the STOCK HONDA TIMING MAP again up to 5-6psi then start retarding .75 degrees of timing or more per pound of boost while maintaining a 11.5 air:fuel across the whole rpm range under WOT. right now i'm running 10-9.9 psi, but i feel as if the FMU setup @ 7psi was stronger.....i ran a stock 350Z on the fmu setup and pulled on him, now w/ AEM EMS @10-9.9psi i raced him again...this time he had cold air intake and crank pulley, and he inched away from me from a slow roll. and this happened everytime......my air:fuel is in the 11.5's now.....so it has to be all in my timing map, i should have pulled on him!
PLEASE HELP!
i need my stock timing map out of my honda ecu, what means do i have to get this?
BTW......this is on a 99 accord I4 5spd.
thanks in advance for all help.
06-06-2004, 05:20 PM
#2
Re: how to retrieve the stock honda timing map in stock ecu? (b_ron007)
A couple things Ive learned from personal experience and talking to many AEM tuners.
-Make sure your logging Knock 1 Volts not Knock 1 raw.
-You should really do a base line pull for knock to establish what kind of noise your engine makes on the base map with a safe AFR (no timing changes). Do a 2nd gear pull from maybe 2k rpm to redline while keeping the throttle at a minimal but very steady position like 20%. Certain types of engine builds may be naturally noisey and this will show you what yours sounds like.
-If you want to look at a stock ignition map get a copy of uberdata. It comes with a stock GSR and LS maps. And actually if you compare the GSR uberdata to the AEM basemaps, the AEM ones are more aggressive.
-Every tuner on here is going to tell you, that you cant realy tune ignition without a dyno. It sounds like your just advancing it until you see knock which wont give you ideal values. And if your still seeing knock after retarding timing alot (and your are infact logging the correct knock parameter) than something is seriously wrong.
-Make sure your wideband is properly setup and calibrated. I had a wiring issue once with my AEM wideband and it displayed a rich value when in fact it was lean. I kept subtracting fuel and seeing knock and I couldn't figure it out.
-You should have it professionaly tuned if you cant figured it out. Your going to break something.
-Make sure your logging Knock 1 Volts not Knock 1 raw.
-You should really do a base line pull for knock to establish what kind of noise your engine makes on the base map with a safe AFR (no timing changes). Do a 2nd gear pull from maybe 2k rpm to redline while keeping the throttle at a minimal but very steady position like 20%. Certain types of engine builds may be naturally noisey and this will show you what yours sounds like.
-If you want to look at a stock ignition map get a copy of uberdata. It comes with a stock GSR and LS maps. And actually if you compare the GSR uberdata to the AEM basemaps, the AEM ones are more aggressive.
-Every tuner on here is going to tell you, that you cant realy tune ignition without a dyno. It sounds like your just advancing it until you see knock which wont give you ideal values. And if your still seeing knock after retarding timing alot (and your are infact logging the correct knock parameter) than something is seriously wrong.
-Make sure your wideband is properly setup and calibrated. I had a wiring issue once with my AEM wideband and it displayed a rich value when in fact it was lean. I kept subtracting fuel and seeing knock and I couldn't figure it out.
-You should have it professionaly tuned if you cant figured it out. Your going to break something.
06-06-2004, 06:13 PM
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everything is setup correctly including my wideband.
now....if my memory serves me right......you need to datalog raw knock to setup the knock table.....do a run at lowest of a load as possible from 2 grand to redline.....this is what engine noise ur engine creates......yes i know this......and there is a few tuners who tune to knock. from datalogging KNOCK RAW u have to add 10-15 percent above that and use that adjusted amount to input it on the knock sensor table, so when there is knock the volts that is logged(knock volts#1), it'll be the voltage that goes above that 10-15% that you setup on ur knock table. maybe u need to go back and read the manual or go talk to the techs again.....ur info is a lil screwy(no offense, bad info is not good info)
you need to log knock raw to setup the knock sensor, knock#1 is actual volts that go above ur knock table. i've pulled as much as 6-7 degrees from 3500rpms to redline......this is with 5 bottles of octane booster in 1/3 of a tank of gas with the air:fuel at the most going to 12.8:1, my air:fuel got higher the more i pulled, but at the same time i felt a big loss of power, so even adding a lil fuel wasn't gonna do much as for adding power back. i so already felt i was retarding too much, BUT i never added timing, never ever ever added timing, at the most i did was run one of the base turbo 30-1010 timing map, no more. unless i am taught wrong and i've been adding timing....but when does a smaller number mean ur advancing timing? the numbers have always gone smaller for me, not bigger.
btw....i'm not trying to get every once of power that i can.....i feel no need for a dyno....theres nothing wrong with street tuning besides speeding. i'm not gonna pay someone lots of money to adjust my timing map when i am very capable of doing it myself. everything else i have dialed in. just timing my man....just timing.
BTW.....i was just asking about how to pull my timing map from my honda ecu....i do appreicate it tho. take no offense to anything i said.
SOO....i can use uberdata to pull my honda timing map from the ecu? how was the gsr map pulled? yeah i do know the AEM EMS maps are junk, thats y i'm trying to get my honda map for my accord. i wanna use the honda timing map all the way up to 5psi then pull timing from there. hell...HONDA did put alot of research in developing their timing maps....dont see how they can be junk besides in boost, but i'm gonna retard from there soo that aint bad either.
maybe my knock sensor is craping out on me....maybe i'll try the brand new one i have and see if that changes anything.
again...thanks in advance!
now....if my memory serves me right......you need to datalog raw knock to setup the knock table.....do a run at lowest of a load as possible from 2 grand to redline.....this is what engine noise ur engine creates......yes i know this......and there is a few tuners who tune to knock. from datalogging KNOCK RAW u have to add 10-15 percent above that and use that adjusted amount to input it on the knock sensor table, so when there is knock the volts that is logged(knock volts#1), it'll be the voltage that goes above that 10-15% that you setup on ur knock table. maybe u need to go back and read the manual or go talk to the techs again.....ur info is a lil screwy(no offense, bad info is not good info)
you need to log knock raw to setup the knock sensor, knock#1 is actual volts that go above ur knock table. i've pulled as much as 6-7 degrees from 3500rpms to redline......this is with 5 bottles of octane booster in 1/3 of a tank of gas with the air:fuel at the most going to 12.8:1, my air:fuel got higher the more i pulled, but at the same time i felt a big loss of power, so even adding a lil fuel wasn't gonna do much as for adding power back. i so already felt i was retarding too much, BUT i never added timing, never ever ever added timing, at the most i did was run one of the base turbo 30-1010 timing map, no more. unless i am taught wrong and i've been adding timing....but when does a smaller number mean ur advancing timing? the numbers have always gone smaller for me, not bigger.
btw....i'm not trying to get every once of power that i can.....i feel no need for a dyno....theres nothing wrong with street tuning besides speeding. i'm not gonna pay someone lots of money to adjust my timing map when i am very capable of doing it myself. everything else i have dialed in. just timing my man....just timing.
BTW.....i was just asking about how to pull my timing map from my honda ecu....i do appreicate it tho. take no offense to anything i said.
SOO....i can use uberdata to pull my honda timing map from the ecu? how was the gsr map pulled? yeah i do know the AEM EMS maps are junk, thats y i'm trying to get my honda map for my accord. i wanna use the honda timing map all the way up to 5psi then pull timing from there. hell...HONDA did put alot of research in developing their timing maps....dont see how they can be junk besides in boost, but i'm gonna retard from there soo that aint bad either.
maybe my knock sensor is craping out on me....maybe i'll try the brand new one i have and see if that changes anything.
again...thanks in advance!
06-06-2004, 10:24 PM
#4
Re: (b_ron007)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by b_ron007 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">maybe u need to go back and read the manual or go talk to the techs again.....ur info is a lil screwy(no offense, bad info is not good info)</TD></TR></TABLE>
What exactly did you find "screwy" about my information? The only confusion I see was me telling you to log knock 1 volts rather than knock 1 raw. I know this is not how you set up the knock table, I was not refering to that at all. Based on that you deemed it bad information?
Well good luck with your tuning.
What exactly did you find "screwy" about my information? The only confusion I see was me telling you to log knock 1 volts rather than knock 1 raw. I know this is not how you set up the knock table, I was not refering to that at all. Based on that you deemed it bad information?
Well good luck with your tuning.
06-07-2004, 04:47 AM
#5
Honda-Tech Member
Re: (b_ron007)
What he is suggesting is that you download UberData which contains a stock GSR map. Open UberData up, load the GSR map and LOOK at the stock ignition values contained in it.
I don't think UberData has a stock Accord .bin though.
And I'm not so sure that using ignition values that produce good gas mileage and clean emmisions up to 5lbs of boost is a wise idea.
I don't think UberData has a stock Accord .bin though.
And I'm not so sure that using ignition values that produce good gas mileage and clean emmisions up to 5lbs of boost is a wise idea.
06-07-2004, 05:41 AM
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<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">-Make sure your logging Knock 1 Volts not Knock 1 raw.
-You should really do a base line pull for knock to establish what kind of noise your engine makes on the base map with a safe AFR (no timing changes). Do a 2nd gear pull from maybe 2k rpm to redline while keeping the throttle at a minimal but very steady position like 20%. Certain types of engine builds may be naturally noisey and this will show you what yours sounds like.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
this is what u stated. how would u tell if it's knock or not if the table isn't properly setup anyways? without the table setup correctly u'd never know what knock is by logging knock#1 volts, there for u'd never know what engine noise ur engine is producing. knock table has to be setup to determine what engine noise is, when u figure that out, then u add 10-15% to those values and then when u do log knock#1 volts, when u get a spike in the log it's because it's going above that 10-15% and that is to be considered knock.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What he is suggesting is that you download UberData which contains a stock GSR map. Open UberData up, load the GSR map and LOOK at the stock ignition values contained in it.
I don't think UberData has a stock Accord .bin though.
And I'm not so sure that using ignition values that produce good gas mileage and clean emmisions up to 5lbs of boost is a wise idea.</TD></TR></TABLE>
gsr uberdata map does not pertain to me, what does is "is that uberdata gsr timing map the same as the stock honda timing map?", "if soo, how was it created or pulled from the stock ecu, or are these tuned gsr maps done by someone else on a stock gsr that have been passed around and have been assumed to be the stock map?" i'd like the stock honda timing map that honda created for my particular engine. the F22 and the F23 are a lil different, not by much, but they are different, so i will assume honda may have tuned the timing maps different since the power output is different, which it should be different, but not by much.
i dont want the map for gas mileage or emissions, i could give a rats butt about that, i want it because thats what worked good and strong for my setup at 7psi. nothing has changed to my engine except for larger injectors and more boost. i'd like to only tune the boosted part of the map. honda has put way more time into the stock ignition map, i dont wanna change any of that, just wanna add on and tune that. is that not wise?
<FONT SIZE="3">how to retrieve the stock honda timing map in stock ecu?</FONT>
thats what i wanna know if it's possible, and if it is, how can i go about it?
you guys are giving me info i already know, pass on something i dont know.
keep it coming guys, just no drama, i'm here to learn, and sorry if i may come out wrong, by no means am i trying to be an ***. if u took offense to any thing i have said, then i am sorry.
-You should really do a base line pull for knock to establish what kind of noise your engine makes on the base map with a safe AFR (no timing changes). Do a 2nd gear pull from maybe 2k rpm to redline while keeping the throttle at a minimal but very steady position like 20%. Certain types of engine builds may be naturally noisey and this will show you what yours sounds like.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
this is what u stated. how would u tell if it's knock or not if the table isn't properly setup anyways? without the table setup correctly u'd never know what knock is by logging knock#1 volts, there for u'd never know what engine noise ur engine is producing. knock table has to be setup to determine what engine noise is, when u figure that out, then u add 10-15% to those values and then when u do log knock#1 volts, when u get a spike in the log it's because it's going above that 10-15% and that is to be considered knock.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What he is suggesting is that you download UberData which contains a stock GSR map. Open UberData up, load the GSR map and LOOK at the stock ignition values contained in it.
I don't think UberData has a stock Accord .bin though.
And I'm not so sure that using ignition values that produce good gas mileage and clean emmisions up to 5lbs of boost is a wise idea.</TD></TR></TABLE>
gsr uberdata map does not pertain to me, what does is "is that uberdata gsr timing map the same as the stock honda timing map?", "if soo, how was it created or pulled from the stock ecu, or are these tuned gsr maps done by someone else on a stock gsr that have been passed around and have been assumed to be the stock map?" i'd like the stock honda timing map that honda created for my particular engine. the F22 and the F23 are a lil different, not by much, but they are different, so i will assume honda may have tuned the timing maps different since the power output is different, which it should be different, but not by much.
i dont want the map for gas mileage or emissions, i could give a rats butt about that, i want it because thats what worked good and strong for my setup at 7psi. nothing has changed to my engine except for larger injectors and more boost. i'd like to only tune the boosted part of the map. honda has put way more time into the stock ignition map, i dont wanna change any of that, just wanna add on and tune that. is that not wise?
<FONT SIZE="3">how to retrieve the stock honda timing map in stock ecu?</FONT>
thats what i wanna know if it's possible, and if it is, how can i go about it?
you guys are giving me info i already know, pass on something i dont know.
keep it coming guys, just no drama, i'm here to learn, and sorry if i may come out wrong, by no means am i trying to be an ***. if u took offense to any thing i have said, then i am sorry.
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06-07-2004, 06:21 AM
#8
Honda-Tech Member
Re: (b_ron007)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by b_ron007 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"><FONT SIZE="3">how to retrieve the stock honda timing map in stock ecu?</FONT>
thats what i wanna know if it's possible, and if it is, how can i go about it?
you guys are giving me info i already know, pass on something i dont know.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Muckman was only trying to help you out. If you want to pull information off the stock rom, go to school, learn assembley programing and study how the honda ecu works. Then maybe you can figure it out.
If you don't feel like doing that then download a copy of uberdata like Muckman said and have a look at the different roms for different models of hondas.
thats what i wanna know if it's possible, and if it is, how can i go about it?
you guys are giving me info i already know, pass on something i dont know.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Muckman was only trying to help you out. If you want to pull information off the stock rom, go to school, learn assembley programing and study how the honda ecu works. Then maybe you can figure it out.
If you don't feel like doing that then download a copy of uberdata like Muckman said and have a look at the different roms for different models of hondas.
06-07-2004, 05:58 PM
#10
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Re: (b_ron007)
Try doing a little research next time
06-08-2004, 07:07 AM
#11
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lmao.......this is a good place to get info, but why the *********?
u fool, i didn't post for nothing, i've search quite a bit. you have nothing useful to pass on soo just burn off jackass. u damn jackasses are giving me **** i already know, try something i dont know, how about answer what i'm asking?
:thumbs down:
u fool, i didn't post for nothing, i've search quite a bit. you have nothing useful to pass on soo just burn off jackass. u damn jackasses are giving me **** i already know, try something i dont know, how about answer what i'm asking?
:thumbs down:
06-08-2004, 07:39 PM
#13
Re: (b_ron007)
The data is read with a special MCU code dumper. The encrypted data then needs to be converted to a usable binary or hex code. No freeware romeditor currently supports OBD-2 code, so you will need to research it for yourself on http://www.pgmfi.org to get your exact tables or see if gimpy will help you with a .bin that is close http://www.ecimulti.org/uberdata/forum/
06-09-2004, 04:51 AM
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that was much more help. thanks a bunch.
Legendboy......go BAN urself!
didn't ur momma tell u "if you have nothing nice to say, dont say it!"
if ur not contributing to help, then keep ur comments to urself. Thanks, now keep ur pie hole closed.
Legendboy......go BAN urself!
didn't ur momma tell u "if you have nothing nice to say, dont say it!"
if ur not contributing to help, then keep ur comments to urself. Thanks, now keep ur pie hole closed.
06-09-2004, 09:28 AM
#15
Honda-Tech Member
Re: (b_ron007)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by b_ron007 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">that was much more help. thanks a bunch.
Legendboy......go BAN urself!
didn't ur momma tell u "if you have nothing nice to say, dont say it!"
if ur not contributing to help, then keep ur comments to urself. Thanks, now keep ur pie hole closed.</TD></TR></TABLE>
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by legendboy »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">......download a copy of uberdata like Muckman said and have a look at the different roms for different models of hondas. </TD></TR></TABLE>
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by legendboy »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">http://www.pgmfi.org/
</TD></TR></TABLE>
BAN!
Legendboy......go BAN urself!
didn't ur momma tell u "if you have nothing nice to say, dont say it!"
if ur not contributing to help, then keep ur comments to urself. Thanks, now keep ur pie hole closed.</TD></TR></TABLE>
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by legendboy »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">......download a copy of uberdata like Muckman said and have a look at the different roms for different models of hondas. </TD></TR></TABLE>
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by legendboy »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">http://www.pgmfi.org/
</TD></TR></TABLE>
BAN!
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