Tjabo

Some of you on this board make ridiculous amounts of power in cars that seem to be street cars. I realize that some of that goes away when you're running pump gas, but with the limited ability that FWD cars have to put down any decent power without going up in smoke, how much can you really use?

The reason I'm asking is that I am planning out a build right now, and I really don't know what power level to plan for as a target. I do not want to build a drag car, but I'll have reasonably stiff rear springs in the car, and a Quaife.

Can anyone help give me some ballpark understanding of what I should be trying to make for a fast street car that will see some drag strip visits, and track/autocross duty.

Bear in mind that I'm not needing help on understanding the lag situation for autocross, it won't be a world beating autocrosser either, but should keep up pretty well in Street Mod, since I can do that already with no power! LOL!

Thanks in advance!

dc2____R

400-450, 12-15psi makes a nice daily driver but everyone has there own opinion depends whats suits your needs forget about what anyone does its your car

Tchleung

anywhere around 300whp/200wtq IMO. anymore and it'll get dangerous. I can hardly open up my car anymore cause I can only do it in 4th gear since that's the only gear I can actually use all my power, this is on drag radials as well and by that time I'll be going way over 200 km/h which is just reckless

B.

its not the power bra! its the setup and driver...

and trust me, once you have a little you want alot more....

adubaz7

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by B. &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">its not the power bra! its the setup and driver...

and trust me, once you have a little you want alot more.... </TD></TR></TABLE>

this guy is keepin it real

ek_chris

I think over 250wtq is when it gets kindof pointless (unless you track the car alot) For a pure daily driver, I wouldnt pass about 220wtq-230. But it depends on your setup as well.

stealthmode62

50% holding it down
50% keepin it real

Topdawgg

430/300 here.. daily driven.. and its fun as hell.. but still really streetable IMO...

tannerLSt

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ek_chris &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I think over 250wtq is when it gets kindof pointless (unless you track the car alot) For a pure daily driver, I wouldnt pass about 220wtq-230. But it depends on your setup as well.</TD></TR></TABLE>
unless you daily drive on drag radials... with 342wtq it still hooked pretty good

i guess traction bars, good suspension and stuff to make the power get to the ground help.

AMR Engineering

It's going to vary from setup to setup. I hook up really well and I have about 430+whp. I dynoed at 415@12.5psi, I turned up the boost to 14 since then. I even run a 17" rim with a 40 series tire. I believe I just happen to have a good combination.

My LS tranny, and the powerband of my GT35r seems to work rather well together. I made a good suspension setup for my car as well and got a good alignment. I have not really needed to rely on my speed dependant boost control via AEM yet. Even though I have that all tuned, I have yet to really use it.

I think it is just going to come down to factors like turbo size and etc. Even with drag radials, if your making too much power to soon, you will just roast them.

DaveF

450 in a street car is plenty ! its alot of fun on the highway !

Topdawgg

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by AMR Engineering &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

My LS tranny, and the powerband of my GT35r seems to work rather well together.

</TD></TR></TABLE>
I hear ya... mine is awesome too...

Tjabo

Thanks everyone, this really does help!

Since there was comment on power band characteristics determining how much power can be useable, I'll throw out some specifics of what I have in mind:

I'm building a 2 liter (Neon) with a decent amount of cam, and enough head flow to make close to 180 hp N/A (I won't be using enough cam to make that amount of power, but the head flow should be there) if I stick with the ported SOHC head. I can also go with a DOHC setup with similar cam profiles, in which case the head has proven that it can make 200 hp N/A stock, and obviously more than that ported.

I'm making a log manifold and a good sized exhaust system either way, both of which I know will tend to spool the turbo on the early side and the manifold will definitely bias the power band toward the low end. I've got an SC6152sp on its way, which I think should work well with the cam choices to give a good amount of top end at a reasonable boost level to keep the low end torque reasonable.

Also, I'm running MegaSquirt, so the potential is there to use mappable boost control based on throttle position.

Currently I have an aggressive autocross suspension setup that should work pretty well for putting down power other than the -2.75 degrees of camber. I'll definitely be standing the front tires up straighter to help put down some power.

Thanks again for the comments so far, and thanks in advance for any more specifcs anyone might be able to offer!

0BoostedJeff

Anything over 450whp really seems un-needed on the street. I used to ride around on ET streets which helped, but it starts to get dangerous after too much power.

AMR Engineering

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Topdawgg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I hear ya... mine is awesome too...</TD></TR></TABLE>

You know what, I started to feel bad because I had a LS tranny. I had thought the tranny was a GSR all a long actually. It is by no means the best tranny for drag racing from what people say cause it doesn't have the short gears. But the fact I get 35-38 miles a gallon and cruise at like 3200 rpms is nice, and I always did notice that my car hooked up rather well for the power it made. After putting 2 and 2 together I was like, WTF this is a LS tranny haha. There is no way, even with another tranny my car would be a stop light to stop light killer. I'll leave that to the stock turbo WRX and lil 240sx guys that run around with their lil stock turbos tuned up to the max with there large ebay intercooler thinking they are the fastest thing on the planet. I got love for all cars, but those are the guys that rev on me most often. Which is annoying when all a guy is tryin to do is get to point A to point B and just minding his own business. Honda don't really mess with me. I'll show them real power in 3rd gear and what hondas do with a big turbo hehe.

AMR Engineering

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tjabo &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Thanks everyone, this really does help!

Since there was comment on power band characteristics determining how much power can be useable, I'll throw out some specifics of what I have in mind:

I'm building a 2 liter (Neon) with a decent amount of cam, and enough head flow to make close to 180 hp N/A (I won't be using enough cam to make that amount of power, but the head flow should be there) if I stick with the ported SOHC head. I can also go with a DOHC setup with similar cam profiles, in which case the head has proven that it can make 200 hp N/A stock, and obviously more than that ported.

I'm making a log manifold and a good sized exhaust system either way, both of which I know will tend to spool the turbo on the early side and the manifold will definitely bias the power band toward the low end. I've got an SC6152sp on its way, which I think should work well with the cam choices to give a good amount of top end at a reasonable boost level to keep the low end torque reasonable.

Also, I'm running MegaSquirt, so the potential is there to use mappable boost control based on throttle position.

Currently I have an aggressive autocross suspension setup that should work pretty well for putting down power other than the -2.75 degrees of camber. I'll definitely be standing the front tires up straighter to help put down some power.

Thanks again for the comments so far, and thanks in advance for any more specifcs anyone might be able to offer! </TD></TR></TABLE>

You have a neon? I know you are making your own stuff, but a friend of mine who is a fabricator as well as a Dodge Neon Guru. If you have any questions or just want to chat it up, hit him up. His name is Eric, and his screen name on AIM is BigernRT. Super nice guy and when it comes to Neons he knows his ****. He also makes a turbo manifold and setup for that car already which is truly sick. I just saw his new topmount and it turned our really nice. Gosh, I hope it was for a neon, cause I swear the block it was mounted on was a dodge neon motor. Well anyways, hit him up if you have any questions with your build and etc.

Tjabo

I think I know who that is, and I was just ogling pictures of that top mount over on the Neon board. It's an absolute master piece! ! ! ! I like screwing around in the garage making my own crap (which is why I'm extra slow), but if I ever want something that is really nice, I would definitely go to Eric!

Thanks!

jdm_dc_fan

iTrader: (1)

300hp 200tq. i have more confidence racing high hp cars from a dig than moderate hp cars.
traction FTw

alpha

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BoostedJeff &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Anything over 450whp really seems un-needed on the street. I used to ride around on ET streets which helped, but it starts to get dangerous after too much power.</TD></TR></TABLE>

M&H DOT's go a long way. Like you said though. Like you said though. Too much power on the street gets to be VERY dangerous. I've had my fair share of experiences unfortunately

0BoostedJeff

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by alpha &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

M&H DOT's go a long way. Like you said though. Like you said though. Too much power on the street gets to be VERY dangerous. I've had my fair share of experiences unfortunately</TD></TR></TABLE>

Worst part is, most of the time its not YOU that makes it dangerous. I feel the same way about street bikes... You can be the best rider in the world, but you can not always predict what other people are going to do. With true street cars it seems that most the people are so concerned with power but don't give 2 ***** about their brakes. If something pulls out in front of you or comes in your lane when you are at the top of a 4th gear highway pull... You are screwed. If you lock your brakes up at 140, you will most likely lose control, and if you don't hit the brakes hard enough, you will hit whatever is in your way. I haven't driven my current car on the street, and I don't plan on it.

AMR Engineering

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BoostedJeff &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Worst part is, most of the time its not YOU that makes it dangerous. I feel the same way about street bikes... You can be the best rider in the world, but you can not always predict what other people are going to do. With true street cars it seems that most the people are so concerned with power but don't give 2 ***** about their brakes. If something pulls out in front of you or comes in your lane when you are at the top of a 4th gear highway pull... You are screwed. If you lock your brakes up at 140, you will most likely lose control, and if you don't hit the brakes hard enough, you will hit whatever is in your way. I haven't driven my current car on the street, and I don't plan on it.</TD></TR></TABLE>

That's why I roll with these. Can't fit slicks, but ohh well. I upgraded the rear as well with AEM Rear Brake kit in Hyperblack to match my Wilwood fronts, and I got both my air bags just incase LOL. I actually don't race on the street much at all if any, but you never know about other people like you said.

Tjabo

Going back to the topic of useable power based on the type of powerband, how do the following cams sound with the SC6152sp:

For the SOHC setup if the flow ends up being sufficient after the porting, 216/212 duration @ .050" and lifts of .355"/.345"? Lobe separation is set at 108 degrees on this one if I recall correctly.

If that is too big, the cam I am currently running in the SOHC N/A is 205/206 @ .050", with lifts of .377"/.336"? Again, lobe separation is stuck at 108.

Or, for the DOHC setup, how about 216/216 @ .050 and .394"/.394"? This one has a "straight up" lobe separation of 108, adjustable.

If that is too big, I'm currently running cams in that one that are 204/204 @ .050", and .364"/.364", same lobe separation--108 adjustable?

Too small, too big? Preferences?

The idea being to keep the torque down for streetableness while having a nice strong top end pull (like you Honda guys seem to have! ).

Thanks again!

Bailhatch

I have learned a good lesson tuning other peoples cars and my own as well. My goal for my street car is about 450-475whp but I want to limit it to about 300 for 1st and 2nd then ramp up the tq smoothly in 3rd then full bore in 4th and 5th.

I have a stock b16 w/ 300whp and 210tq right now and it's with a little bit of boost creep which gives me a very smooth tq curve. Great for traction in 1-2-3 but once it's hooked I am obviously missing the massive tq jump I would have at a higher power level. (thats where the sleeved gsr block in my room comes into play )

The only way to really use big fwd power is to use electronic boost control. Drag racers figured this out a while ago, you just dont see it as often on street cars I think. traction

HiProfile

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tannerLSt &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i guess traction bars, good suspension and stuff to make the power get to the ground help.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Suspension, gradual torque ramp, boost control. 300whp in most well-worked shells is about the limit for FWD Hondas.

300whp in a light car is crazy enough on the street. ****, I had fun breaking tires loose in 2nd with a SOHC on an HF manifold, and that was all of 200whp.

Its really in the boost control though - having power limited for 1st/2nd gears means 3rd/4th feels weak unless you increase boost for them. I've been thinking of a magnetic switch with a 2-stage MBC for the street one I get my trans replaced. I don't like flipping switches, not that I can't control it - I just always forget!

HickamHatch

if you have s300 you can just use boost control by each gear. nice to get traction, run it off of spring for 1st and 2nd, then up the boost a lil more in 3rd and full boost by 4th and there is your usable power. also good suspension and traction bars helps