pwrofdrm

Setup:

B18C1- 81mm ~9.5:1cr
USDM P72 ECU
Hondata S300
Hondata Boost Control Solenoid
Hondata 4-bar MAP
RC 750cc Saturated
Walbro 255

Inline Pro Mani
T3/60-1 .63a/r
3" Turboback
Tial 38mm WG- 13psi Spring
New Autometer Digital Electronic Boost Gauge


Issue:
-Boost gauges read 13psi at full boost

-Hondata reads no more than 8psi


Reason why this is an issue:
-Trying to increase power levels of the car


Already Tried:
No boost controller- the Hondata controller was disconnected- no effect
Different Hondata 4-bar- Had another one around the shop, put it on- no effect


Thoughts? Car runs mint, seemingly no vacuum leaks, no stutters, car makes 8psi power levels...am I over looking a vacuum leak? Then why isn't the car stuttering or running poorly?





Modified by pwrofdrm at 4:56 PM 10/17/2008

SovXietday

Sounds like you haven't scaled the map sensor correctly.

pwrofdrm

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SovXietday &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Sounds like you haven't scaled the map sensor correctly.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

Should have mentioned this before; I'm not tuning the car, nor am I knowledgeable of Hondata software; this is my first time getting into it.

Does the map sensor have to be 'scaled' or otherwise calibrated manually, or is this just a selection for the software? Because I know in Smanage &gt; Parameters &gt; MAP &gt; "Replacement MAP Sensor: Hondata/Omnipower 4bar" is selected; this was double checked.

96 GSR-T

I have this issue with Neptune running an AEM 3.5Bar and a GReddy Gague. 15psi in my laptop shows almost 18psi on my gague and 22psi reads about 26psi on my gague, I trust the map sensor over the gague so it never really bothered me.

pwrofdrm

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 96 GSR-T &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I have this issue with Neptune running an AEM 3.5Bar and a GReddy Gague. 15psi in my laptop shows almost 18psi on my gague and 22psi reads about 26psi on my gague, I trust the map sensor over the gague so it never really bothered me.</TD></TR></TABLE>

So I should just crank the boost up until it reads that I'm running more than 8psi on my laptop?

pwrofdrm

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 96 GSR-T &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I have this issue with Neptune running an AEM 3.5Bar and a GReddy Gague. 15psi in my laptop shows almost 18psi on my gague and 22psi reads about 26psi on my gague, I trust the map sensor over the gague so it never really bothered me.</TD></TR></TABLE>

So I should just crank the boost up until it reads that I'm running more than 8psi on my laptop?

SOHC_MShue

so you put a stock map sensor on and didn't rescale it in the software? Did you not notice the car running horribly different? Obviously it was still on 4 bar settings if it read 24psi.

96 GSR-T

I would trust the map sensor long before I trust the gague, so if you want to run 8psi set it to 8psi on your computer screen and be done with it..... obviously with the correct map sensor selected in the software.

pwrofdrm

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SOHC_MShue &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">so you put a stock map sensor on and didn't rescale it in the software? Did you not notice the car running horribly different? Obviously it was still on 4 bar settings if it read 24psi. </TD></TR></TABLE>

That makes sense, although the car didn't run horribly different. I can't imagine that the tuner wouldn't have selected 'Stock MAP' in the software after we switched it...it's not like he didn't know I put it on

Again...to clarify...please be patient with me people! I'm not the one tuning the car, I don't know how; I was there while the car was being tuned and saw what was happening. I'll try to answer your questions as best I can, but I'm mainly looking for insight and to see if people have run into this issue before.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 96 GSR-T &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I have this issue with Neptune running an AEM 3.5Bar and a GReddy Gague. 15psi in my laptop shows almost 18psi on my gague and 22psi reads about 26psi on my gague, I trust the map sensor over the gague so it never really bothered me.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Do you have a boost cut set in Neptune? If so at what pressure?

RRev Tim

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 96 GSR-T &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I would trust the map sensor long before I trust the gague, so if you want to run 8psi set it to 8psi on your computer screen and be done with it..... obviously with the correct map sensor selected in the software.</TD></TR></TABLE>


X2 !

I have seen a few different guages out there that read different than the EMS is reading, and it is always hi. Greddy guages are the most off I have seen. If you sensor is selected right in the software, you should trust the map sensor.

HRTuning

First off, mechanical gauges often read differently. Trust the map reading in the software over the gauge.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by pwrofdrm &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">That makes sense, although the car didn't run horribly different. I can't imagine that the tuner wouldn't have selected 'Stock MAP' in the software after we switched it...it's not like he didn't know I put it on </TD></TR></TABLE>

The stock map sensor isn't capable of seeing 24psi given the scalars it uses, so your tuner definitely did not switch it back to Stock Map in the software.

96 GSR-T

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by pwrofdrm &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">


Do you have a boost cut set in Neptune? If so at what pressure?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Roughly 1psi higher than max boost, never had an issue hitting the cut. Its dependent on your setups ability to hold boost steady.

pwrofdrm

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 96 GSR-T &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Roughly 1psi higher than max boost, never had an issue hitting the cut. Its dependent on your setups ability to hold boost steady.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I've never had a problem hitting boost cut either.

Before last night, I've been running straight off the wastegate spring- again it's a Tial 38, it's the Large Green spring, pushing approx. 13.0 psi. No boost creep, gauge maxes at 13psi.

sp00led

My Greddy boost gauge reads higher then what my GM 3bar / S300 ecu sees. I always use the ECU reading for dialing in boost levels.

RC000E

Why in the world would you remove the 4bar sensor, and replace it with a stock one just to make some effort to make your boost gauge match the software?

So, your car ran fine, and was tuned completely, but merely because your gauge didn't match you went on this somewhat blind mission to correct it?

I've seen gauges read off so many times I can't count. If the management is tuned for what it sees though then there isn't an issue. Put everything back to the state in which it was tuned and drive the car...period.

srmofo

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 96 GSR-T &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I would trust the map sensor long before I trust the gague, so if you want to run 8psi set it to 8psi on your computer screen and be done with it..... obviously with the correct map sensor selected in the software.</TD></TR></TABLE>
x2 my autometer boost gauge has never matched what my s200 said it was at

Spunkster

A boost cut of 10.5 may be beyond the ability of a stock map sensor to read, and therefore will allow you to overboost without a boost cut. It will be impossible for a stock map sensor to read 24psi. Without providing datalogs and calibrations showing the problems, it's very difficult to determine exactly what is going on at this point.

pwrofdrm

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RC000E &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Why in the world would you remove the 4bar sensor, and replace it with a stock one just to make some effort to make your boost gauge match the software?

So, your car ran fine, and was tuned completely, but merely because your gauge didn't match you went on this somewhat blind mission to correct it?

I've seen gauges read off so many times I can't count. If the management is tuned for what it sees though then there isn't an issue. Put everything back to the state in which it was tuned and drive the car...period.</TD></TR></TABLE>


Because the problem is not limited to the fact that my boost gauge reads something other than the software. The problem is, turning the boost up via Hondata increases boost levels as per the gauges, however the software doesn't see higher than 8psi no matter what.

We're trying to tune the car for higher power levels. As I said, it makes 8psi power levels right now. The Hondata isn't datalogging in higher boost levels than 8. However, it was confirmed by two gauges that the car is running 13psi at the WG.

I realize from you guys that there was probably a mistake made in the software when we switched back to a stock MAP sensor for half a dyno pull. The gauge read 24psi for some reason or another. Something was definitely wrong. We immediately switched back to the 4 bar, and the car is running great right now.


Spunkster;
Should I upload the bin file from the tune and post it? Will that help?

RC000E

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by pwrofdrm &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">


Because the problem is not limited to the fact that my boost gauge reads something other than the software. The problem is, turning the boost up via Hondata increases boost levels as per the gauges, however the software doesn't see higher than 8psi no matter what.

We're trying to tune the car for higher power levels. As I said, it makes 8psi power levels right now. The Hondata isn't datalogging in higher boost levels than 8. However, it was confirmed by two gauges that the car is running 13psi at the WG.

I realize from you guys that there was probably a mistake made in the software when we switched back to a stock MAP sensor for half a dyno pull. The gauge read 24psi for some reason or another. Something was definitely wrong. We immediately switched back to the 4 bar, and the car is running great right now.


Spunkster;
Should I upload the bin file from the tune and post it? Will that help? </TD></TR></TABLE>

Well, maybe it was how this was presented but it certainly didn't appear to be presented as anything more than the software not specifically matching the gauge.

If the software is locking at 8psi, but your gauge is changing per boost level variation through the software, then yes you either have some scaling issue, a bad sensor, or a wiring problem.

Had you tried a stock sensor, then actually rescaled everything FOR a stock sensor you may have part of your answer. In my experience the best answer is to de-complicate the setup. Go to the stock map, stock scaling, and possibly just more basic boost control. Isolate variables, and investigate on a system by system basis.

pwrofdrm

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RC000E &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Well, maybe it was how this was presented but it certainly didn't appear to be presented as anything more than the software not specifically matching the gauge.

If the software is locking at 8psi, but your gauge is changing per boost level variation through the software, then yes you either have some scaling issue, a bad sensor, or a wiring problem.

Had you tried a stock sensor, then actually rescaled everything FOR a stock sensor you may have part of your answer. In my experience the best answer is to de-complicate the setup. Go to the stock map, stock scaling, and possibly just more basic boost control. Isolate variables, and investigate on a system by system basis. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Sorry for the confusion, I edited the original post to avoid any more.

Excuse my newb- ness in this question, but as I said, I'm a Hondata rookie:

If I reinstall my stock MAP sensor myself, download my tune from my S300 onto my laptop, go into Configurations and select that I'm using a stock MAP sensor as oppose to the Hondata/Omnipower 4-bar, will the maps be rescaled automatically or does the car need to be re-tuned for the stock MAP? If that's the case then I can continue to attempt to figure this out by myself, otherwise I have to wait for another appointment

HiProfile

I dont have access to all my info, but IIRC the KOEO (key on, engine off) voltage between the ground and signal wires on the MAP for a 4bar should be around 1.25v. You'd have to measure your current conditions with a barometer, then find that spot on the graph in the sensor's datasheet.

Chances are you have some weird offset issue either with both gauges' sensors or the MAP itself. Rarely is it the MAP wires, since they run off the same power the ecu does. Unless you use the same ground voltage as the MAP, you could have problems. This is one reason I prefer mechanical gauges, no wiring issues - at worst off by 1 psi due to elevation.

SovXietday

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by pwrofdrm &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Sorry for the confusion, I edited the original post to avoid any more.

Excuse my newb- ness in this question, but as I said, I'm a Hondata rookie:

If I reinstall my stock MAP sensor myself, download my tune from my S300 onto my laptop, go into Configurations and select that I'm using a stock MAP sensor as oppose to the Hondata/Omnipower 4-bar, will the maps be rescaled automatically or does the car need to be re-tuned for the stock MAP? If that's the case then I can continue to attempt to figure this out by myself, otherwise I have to wait for another appointment </TD></TR></TABLE>

No, you do not need to retune the car, just rescale for the correct MAP sensor and everything should work fine. Make sure you reupload the Hondata map if you switch MAP sensors. Quite frankly the car should not run if it is scaled for a 4bar but has a stock MAP sensor in it.

HiProfile

Well in closed loop mode it will correct the AFR quite a bit (especially with a non-stock EMS). A stock MAP running on a 4bar tune will get you 2.3x more fuel w/o correction. You can idle an engine with ~75% extra fuel at most, so it probably was able to correct well enough.

Now that I think about it, you may need to have the tuner touch up the maps if it was a MAP sensor issue reading voltage wrong (and did so when it was tuned). I'd highly suggest you hunt the issue down; but honestly, you may not need to fix it. If the gauge is correct and your timing/AFR's are just as the tuner set them, you'll just have to deal with knowing the MAP has an offset issue. Think of it this way - if you tune a car for 450cc injectors but it has 900cc injectors, it would require 1/2 raw value in the fuel map as a similar 450cc setup. But if you get 12.5:1 AFR's, its just a 'cosmetic' issue.

pwrofdrm

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by HiProfile &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Well in closed loop mode it will correct the AFR quite a bit (especially with a non-stock EMS). A stock MAP running on a 4bar tune will get you 2.3x more fuel w/o correction. You can idle an engine with ~75% extra fuel at most, so it probably was able to correct well enough.

Now that I think about it, you may need to have the tuner touch up the maps if it was a MAP sensor issue reading voltage wrong (and did so when it was tuned). I'd highly suggest you hunt the issue down; but honestly, you may not need to fix it. If the gauge is correct and your timing/AFR's are just as the tuner set them, you'll just have to deal with knowing the MAP has an offset issue. Think of it this way - if you tune a car for 450cc injectors but it has 900cc injectors, it would require 1/2 raw value in the fuel map as a similar 450cc setup. But if you get 12.5:1 AFR's, its just a 'cosmetic' issue.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I'm going to research more on the MAP sensor voltage and try to rule that out, as well as double check the wiring.

The car definitely isn't finished. I'm also going to search for vacuum leaks in the charge piping, install a vacuum distribution block so there are no more t-fittings in my lines, and while I'm at it install my Endyn catch can. Plus try switching the MAP's myself.

Thank-you for the input and help everyone, I really appreciate it