MalcolmV8

OK so I finally got my Honda running and I'm playing with the tune. Trying to figure out some functions in the S300 to get me going.

Initially yesterday while driving around I had my g/f sitting in the passenger's seat working the laptop. I found that she could change the fuel map by simply dragging and moving the 2d graph. So I'd drive and tell here right "here" is to lean or rich etc. and she'd see where it was on the graph, slide it, ctrl-u and change takes effect.
After several miles of playing last night here's what I came up with. I know it needs a lot of work but it got the car drivable.



Now I'm sure the above described method is not the best as it doesn't compensate for engine load. It's just a graph of RPM vs Fuel.

Another very interesting option is the S300 makes a chart while driving of the actual fuel cells and shows you the percent of fuel that needs to be added or removed. Just like this



The above display is cool as hell but you have to right click each cell and choose adjust and go into the little pop up window and add or subtract the percent that was shown in the cell. That takes FOREVER and is tedious. There has to be an option more like "apply changes" or something. I just can't find it. I mean it tells me exactly how much each cell is off from target lambada, it should be able to make that change.

Next up was timing. I have no baseline to work from as to what these cars can take in terms of timing when boosted? I got the 87 octane gas out and put in 91 then made the changes you see in the blue highlight area. It's 3000 rpms and up and part throttle to mid and up. I highlighted all the cells and removed 75% of the timing that was there. So if a cell had 46 degrees timing in it, now it has 11.5. I was hoping that would be a safe drop plus I was only running 3lbs of boost to be safe.

kyden

you're not changing the right cells. you don't even have boost portion of the map.

it is showing load, as you are in a map based system. less vacuum = more load.

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

You'd really be better off going to the Engine management and tuning forum with this, my friend. Mtber and others would be better off to help you there than even this section would. It's possible that they would be able to give you a base map to start off with instead of from scratch (based upon your setup) instead of going through the guessing games. I didn't know whether or not you were aware of that forum's existance, but that's the best place to get ya rollin'.

MalcolmV8

I figured I have it all wrong hence looking for some guidance.

Where is the Mtber forum? I google'd it but not finding much.

turbohatch96y7

iTrader: (15)

And yeah your tuning it na.
Go under the boost coloum choose wich map sensorr you have and another like 10 coloums show up to the right.
The top portion of the fuel map is the vac. All the way to the left is wide open throttle.
I would step back from tuning sit on the lap top a few days and go threw eachb and every tab and get familiar with the software and dive back in.
I haven't tuned my car yet but just messing with the software a couple days I got a good understand of what's going on.

MalcolmV8

Ah OK, Options then "Show boost tables". I had seen that before but couldn't figure out what it was for. Now I see it added more columbs so instead of 1 through 10 there is 11 etc. and more depending on if you have a 3 bar, 4 bar etc.

rclark

A general rule of thumb is to pull 1* of timing per psi of boost. However, the only proper way to tune ignition is on a dyno- and it should be done by a professional.

Try this to get you driving- go to "Edit" in the top tool bar, scroll down to "Create Boost Tables," and then choose how you would like the tables generated.

But be careful, unless you really know what you are doing you are headed into territory that will blow the motor with the slightest mistake.

edit: it should be noted I am FAR from a hondata expert.

cruizinmax

iTrader: (2)

You need to put the timing back in you took out. You need to retard timing per pound of boost not just rpm. You can do this through the "create boost tables" option. I would start by retarding 1 degree per pound of boost since your on 91 and learning.

On the fuel maps I generally highlight multiple cells and hit "control+J" and use the percentage to add or subtract fuel to get me in the ball park.

MalcolmV8

Ahh thanks guys. I'm starting to get the picture. OK I restored the timing values back to what they were.



I had selected "4 bar map tables" first then I did the "Edit" "Create Boost Tables" as you said. I set it for 1 degree of timing retard per lb of boost and it had add 120% fuel over n/a as the default which I accepted. Here's how my timing looks now.



I must say I'm amazed that all you remove is 1 degree of timing per lb of boost. Seems like nothing lol.

d112crzy

Whats your setup? I'm sure if you listed some info someone could send you a basemap(or you could search for one) close to your setup so you don't grenade your motor.

siregcivic

why does your wot timing jump from 17 degrees to 28 degrees in na portion?

i would definately either start with a new basemap that hasent been tampered with, create boost tables with the map sensor you are using, and with a b series, i would pull 1.25 of timing and add atleast 140% fuel depending on how big your turbo is, and then start tuning the fuel only until you get that dialed in...

but like everyone said, timing is really to only be tuned on the dyno, and when you are driving if for some reason you feel your car hiccup let off the gas and go to that portion of the map and look to see what the afr was, what your timing is and determine why it did that...

also check your plugs once you get your car dialed in throw a new set of plugs in ngk bkr7e depending on how much boost your running i always run the 7's but ive never been above 20psi so....

anyways put new gapped plugs in go do a wot 3rd gear pull, shut the car off and check the plugs, make sure they are not white, or dark black...i like them to be a dark brown for turbo cars, but i also tune turbo cars to 11.8 afr so .... and also look for black specs wich would indicate detonation

MalcolmV8

Like in my sig. 98 Civic, D16Y8, smaller 53 mm turbo. Precision 5424 I believe it is. ID1000 injectors, 4 bar map. Most everything else is stock in terms of the engine related to tune.

I don't see where you see the 17 degrees jump to 28 degrees? Unless you are looking at an old post above. The most recent spark post above has all stock P28 NA tables. The only 17 I see is in column 8 at 2200 RPM and to the right of it is 13.25 degrees or there's a 17.25 in column 10 at 3000 RPM and to the right of it is 14.25 in the boost table.

It's a D motor with a small turbo so I went with the 1 degree of timing and the default of 120% fuel. I'm driving it real easy and slowely dialing things in as I learn.

Yup I agree on the dyno for final tuning and timing. I'm still in the early stages. Right now I do try what you say with driving and checking for hiccups. I don't have any hiccups yet but I watch my wideband on the pillar closely and when I see it going way rich or lean I try and see where it's at on the laptop and correct that.

I have bkr7e plugs in there gaped at 30 thousands. I'm only at 3 PSI while learning to tune.

I run my Cobra at 11.8 too. A good spot for forced induction. I did pull the plugs after my first night of playing around. Zero black specs which I was happy to see. Since most of my night was running lean and slowly richening up the various throttle positions I expected to see the top electrode white and it was. Like I said though easy driving and slowly getting into it bit by bit as I get it more dialed in for that throttle position.

LightningTeg

Honestly I think you have the theory down. It just takes practice getting the software to do what you want it to do

turbohatch96y7

iTrader: (15)

heres what hes refering to as the jump. i dont know how much of a diffrence it makes.
good thread though.

siregcivic

Yea man sounds good to me just keep doing what your doing your going the right way, as u turn the voost up you may need to pull more then 1 degree of timing 3 psi isn't that much strain on the engine but everything else sounds good happy tuning

MalcolmV8

I think so. Just going to take practice as you say.

I'm confused by the WOT part you put on that pic? You have it at column 1? I thought that was not touching the gas pedal and the more you pushed on the pedal the more you shifted to the right in the columns? Although those numbers directly below that your black arrow points to (-3.4) are those vacuum or boost numbers?

Cool thanks man. I'll keep at it.

turbohatch96y7

iTrader: (15)

aww man now im confused. i thought the -28 -23 etc was engine vac. like the readings on a vac gauge. i could be completely wrong though i just started too.

rclark

Turbo Hatch96 y7, you can change how the setting reads- go to "Settings" under the "Options" menu on the tool bar and then select the tab that reads "Units." This tab allows you to set vacuum to decrease or increase from full vacuum or opposite, depending on which you are more comfortable with. Decreasing units is called Atmospheric and the other is Absolute, so full vacuum reads highest on the left with absolute, where as atmospheric is closer to the idea of " of Hg you would see on a gauge.

MalcolmV8

Ah that worked. Thanks man. I like it much better switched around. Much less confusing.

gwarfare

Book mark,good info.

rclark

glad i could help- i really recommend tuning ignition tables on a dyno however. and, by the way, i still get my cars tuned by a professional. just because you know your way around the program doesn't mean one has the experience to correctly dial in a setup.

siregcivic

the part of the map you have arrowed here is low vacuum i/e idle and part throttle of the map not wot



rows 9 and 10 are the wot portions of the map ... i/e low vacuum full throttle areas if you look at rows 9 and 10 around 3000-3400 rpms you can see the timing jump almost ten degrees and thats why i asked why was it like that. and obviously rows 11 and up are bost portions of the map

MalcolmV8

Yeah I called a local dyno shop and he said $125 to rent the dyno. Not to bad but I want to get a lot better at the software before hand so I don't waste my time and money there. I understand some only have their cars tuned by pros but like I said this what I enjoy doing. As good as I can tune it is as good as it'll ever run

That's what I was thinking too. Thanks for clarifying.


I've been out doing more testing/tuning and playing. Now I've noticed low and high speed tables. What does that mean? Does it mean literally high speed as in vehicle movement? what speed does it switch over? I was datalogging and then making some pulls and then playing back the datalog so I can see what's going on and I noticed towards the top of a second gear pull (what I was doing at that time) it jumps to a high speed table. I think that's why I get some erratic AF jumping around when I lay into it. It's jumping tables and I'm only modding one table.

MalcolmV8

I figured this out. The high and low speed tables are for when the VTEC solenoid kicks in. I was playing back the datalogs step by step and watching all the sensors and that's when I realized what's happening. It's right at 4800 RPMs assuming certain conditions are met.

rclark

That is correct, I would have mentioned it if you had mentioned being confused about it. It seems to be easier to me to disable the automatic switching. I'll start on low speed and then move to high speed once I have the low speed done. Under the VTEC tab in "Parameters" you can check and alter the conditions for VTEC engagement, and thus High Speed Map.