HondaEMS (TCS) vs. Action 2MD Clutch Review *LONG*
04-22-2007, 08:47 PM
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HondaEMS (TCS) vs. Action 2MD Clutch Review *LONG*
Well I have run both of these clutches and let me tell you my experiences.
I originally bought the 1MD from Action because my original plan was to build a B20/VTEC and wasn't planning on making that much power. I later changed my plans to boosting my B16 and making between 350 and 400whp.
Knowing my 1MD wouldn't hold the power I decided to order the TCS clutch from HondaEMS as it was rated for "400 ft lbs of tq" and only $235. Well after the experience, the only thing I have nice to say about it is that HondaEMS has decent customer service and is fast responding to PM's, but that's about it.
I got the clutch, which was shipped via USPS, with the box banged up to all hell. The box had a sticker on it saying "sorry we damaged your package", great way to start. I took the clutch out of the box, which was half *** packed in there to examine everything to make sure nothing was broken. Everything looked fine except the paint was chipping a couple places on the pressure plate.
Initial impressions were not so great. This clutch looks like $235 clutch. It seriously looks like a mechanical engineer's senior design project that was funded with money from donations or something. The pressure plate looked and felt less than desirable, I was skeptical from the very beginning as to whether this clutch would hold my power, but since HondaEMS assured me that it would, I said I would give them the benefit of the doubt.
I installed the clutch into my car, made sure all the clutch and flywheel bolts were torqued correctly, and bolted on the transmission. I should add that I was using a brand new fidanza flywheel at this time, because it was easier and more convenient than resurfacing my other flywheel. Got the tranny back on and double checked and triple checked that everything was tight, and off we went.
Got the car to operating temperature and took the car out to hit boost for the first time in my life (with my own car). As soon as boost kicked in in second gear my car shot to redline. My previous car was an all motor 1.8l w/ drag radials, so I had never experienced traction problems in my life, except for I wasn't experiencing traction problems. The clutch couldn't hold the power in 2nd, 3rd, or 4th gear. In 4th gear it would start out holding the power and then by 7k it would just let go and bounce the hell out of the rev limiter. Knowing there is no way I can be doing 100mph burn outs, even on street tires, I soon realized that my clutch was slipping bad and was not holding the power my b16 was making at 7psi with a t3/t4.
Bummed and not wanting to miss out of the first week of racing (April 21st), I decided I had to get a new clutch. I PMed Alchemist here on H-T and inquired about the differences between the 2MD and 1MD clutches. He told me they were exactly the same, except the pressure plates were different. Alchemist hooked me up with a great deal on the pressure plate from the 2MD which shipped directly from Action.
Even though it was only the pressure plate, it was packaged very well and I was very pleased with the shipping time. As soon as I took it out of the packaged I noticed how high quality the unit was, clearly a lot more stout than the TCS POS that I had in my car before.
I dropped the tranny, took the flywheel to the machine shop so they could get all the glaze marks out from the TCS clutch slipping and threw in the 2MD. As soon as I got it bled I immediatley knew that it was much better than the TCS clutch. The pedal felt very firm but not too hard as opposed to the TCS clutch, which felt like a floppy ****.
Started the car up, killed it right away because I was used to the TCS's pedal. Got my game face on and hit the road. As soon as I hit operating temperature I opened it up and had a great experience, full boost with absolutely no slipping whatsoever! I drove it like that for a day and the next day I turned the boost up to 10 lbs and spent the better part of the day tuning my car for opening day at the track (the next day).
Since that day I've put probably 600 miles on the 2MD and it's been holding up great. In those 600 miles I have dumped it a lot in order to get my 2 step dialed in, and I have done A LOT of 3rd and 4th gear pulls in order to tune the AF ratio and get it dialed in perfectly. The Action 2MD clutch I can honestly say is by far the best clutch I've ever used and is a pleasure to drive. It's so solid it makes me love driving my car. I am very glad I made the decision to go with the Action clutch.
*In order to be fair I will add the the only difference between the 2 set ups is that I used 9 clutch bolts on the 2MD and only 6 on the TCS. As most of you know, our B-series come from the factory (at least the B16) with only 6 clutch bolts, so there is no way that this a lone could be the difference. Especially since I went through and torqued everything on both installs.
Recap:
TCS 6 puck sold by HondaEMS:
+Good customer service by Honda EMS
-Poor packaging
-Looks cheap
-Did not work for me
Action 2MD
+Also great customer service, Alchemist on here kicks *** and so does Action
+Great packaging
+Looks very quality, uses dual fingers on the PP
+Hold my power perfectly
+Has great pedal feel, not too stiff, but definitely not too soft
-More expensive, but still a great price (<$500)
Anyway that's my review. It seems like no one has bothered to review the TCS clutch sold by HondaEMS so I will step up to the plate. If someone out there making 300+ whp is using this clutch and it is working for them, please let me know, because it did not work well for me and I would not buy it again if I had to.
Modified by GetawayInMoscow at 8:27 PM 5/26/2007
I originally bought the 1MD from Action because my original plan was to build a B20/VTEC and wasn't planning on making that much power. I later changed my plans to boosting my B16 and making between 350 and 400whp.
Knowing my 1MD wouldn't hold the power I decided to order the TCS clutch from HondaEMS as it was rated for "400 ft lbs of tq" and only $235. Well after the experience, the only thing I have nice to say about it is that HondaEMS has decent customer service and is fast responding to PM's, but that's about it.
I got the clutch, which was shipped via USPS, with the box banged up to all hell. The box had a sticker on it saying "sorry we damaged your package", great way to start. I took the clutch out of the box, which was half *** packed in there to examine everything to make sure nothing was broken. Everything looked fine except the paint was chipping a couple places on the pressure plate.
Initial impressions were not so great. This clutch looks like $235 clutch. It seriously looks like a mechanical engineer's senior design project that was funded with money from donations or something. The pressure plate looked and felt less than desirable, I was skeptical from the very beginning as to whether this clutch would hold my power, but since HondaEMS assured me that it would, I said I would give them the benefit of the doubt.
I installed the clutch into my car, made sure all the clutch and flywheel bolts were torqued correctly, and bolted on the transmission. I should add that I was using a brand new fidanza flywheel at this time, because it was easier and more convenient than resurfacing my other flywheel. Got the tranny back on and double checked and triple checked that everything was tight, and off we went.
Got the car to operating temperature and took the car out to hit boost for the first time in my life (with my own car). As soon as boost kicked in in second gear my car shot to redline. My previous car was an all motor 1.8l w/ drag radials, so I had never experienced traction problems in my life, except for I wasn't experiencing traction problems. The clutch couldn't hold the power in 2nd, 3rd, or 4th gear. In 4th gear it would start out holding the power and then by 7k it would just let go and bounce the hell out of the rev limiter. Knowing there is no way I can be doing 100mph burn outs, even on street tires, I soon realized that my clutch was slipping bad and was not holding the power my b16 was making at 7psi with a t3/t4.
Bummed and not wanting to miss out of the first week of racing (April 21st), I decided I had to get a new clutch. I PMed Alchemist here on H-T and inquired about the differences between the 2MD and 1MD clutches. He told me they were exactly the same, except the pressure plates were different. Alchemist hooked me up with a great deal on the pressure plate from the 2MD which shipped directly from Action.
Even though it was only the pressure plate, it was packaged very well and I was very pleased with the shipping time. As soon as I took it out of the packaged I noticed how high quality the unit was, clearly a lot more stout than the TCS POS that I had in my car before.
I dropped the tranny, took the flywheel to the machine shop so they could get all the glaze marks out from the TCS clutch slipping and threw in the 2MD. As soon as I got it bled I immediatley knew that it was much better than the TCS clutch. The pedal felt very firm but not too hard as opposed to the TCS clutch, which felt like a floppy ****.
Started the car up, killed it right away because I was used to the TCS's pedal. Got my game face on and hit the road. As soon as I hit operating temperature I opened it up and had a great experience, full boost with absolutely no slipping whatsoever! I drove it like that for a day and the next day I turned the boost up to 10 lbs and spent the better part of the day tuning my car for opening day at the track (the next day).
Since that day I've put probably 600 miles on the 2MD and it's been holding up great. In those 600 miles I have dumped it a lot in order to get my 2 step dialed in, and I have done A LOT of 3rd and 4th gear pulls in order to tune the AF ratio and get it dialed in perfectly. The Action 2MD clutch I can honestly say is by far the best clutch I've ever used and is a pleasure to drive. It's so solid it makes me love driving my car. I am very glad I made the decision to go with the Action clutch.
*In order to be fair I will add the the only difference between the 2 set ups is that I used 9 clutch bolts on the 2MD and only 6 on the TCS. As most of you know, our B-series come from the factory (at least the B16) with only 6 clutch bolts, so there is no way that this a lone could be the difference. Especially since I went through and torqued everything on both installs.
Recap:
TCS 6 puck sold by HondaEMS:
+Good customer service by Honda EMS
-Poor packaging
-Looks cheap
-Did not work for me
Action 2MD
+Also great customer service, Alchemist on here kicks *** and so does Action
+Great packaging
+Looks very quality, uses dual fingers on the PP
+Hold my power perfectly
+Has great pedal feel, not too stiff, but definitely not too soft
-More expensive, but still a great price (<$500)
Anyway that's my review. It seems like no one has bothered to review the TCS clutch sold by HondaEMS so I will step up to the plate. If someone out there making 300+ whp is using this clutch and it is working for them, please let me know, because it did not work well for me and I would not buy it again if I had to.
Modified by GetawayInMoscow at 8:27 PM 5/26/2007
04-22-2007, 09:53 PM
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Re: HondaEMS (TCS) vs. Action 2MD Clutch Review *LONG* (GetawayInMoscow)
thanks for the review, I was considering one of these clutch kits too.
Glad I didnt waste my money
Glad I didnt waste my money
04-23-2007, 10:27 AM
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Re: HondaEMS (hionvtecxda6)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by hionvtecxda6 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">thanks for the review, how much was the 2MD pressure plate alone? </TD></TR></TABLE>
$265 shipped. I have my brand new 1MD pressure plate if anyone wants it for cheap, I have no use for it.
$265 shipped. I have my brand new 1MD pressure plate if anyone wants it for cheap, I have no use for it.
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05-02-2007, 01:05 PM
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Re: HondaEMS (rota92)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by rota92 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Wait, did you say you bled it after the 2MD install?
Why, and did you bleed it after the TCS install?</TD></TR></TABLE>
I bled it for like 30 minutes after the TCS install. I thought something was seriously wrong because the clutch pedal was so damn soft, barely firmer than a stock clutch . I figured there must be some air in the system somewhere but after 20+ minutes of fluid only I gave up and accepted it for what it is.
It took me maybe 3 minutes to bleed the 2MD, after 3-4 times it already felt solid.
So to answer your question I bled it after both installs. I've done numerous clutches on B-series so they are no stranger to me.
Why, and did you bleed it after the TCS install?</TD></TR></TABLE>
I bled it for like 30 minutes after the TCS install. I thought something was seriously wrong because the clutch pedal was so damn soft, barely firmer than a stock clutch . I figured there must be some air in the system somewhere but after 20+ minutes of fluid only I gave up and accepted it for what it is.
It took me maybe 3 minutes to bleed the 2MD, after 3-4 times it already felt solid.
So to answer your question I bled it after both installs. I've done numerous clutches on B-series so they are no stranger to me.
05-02-2007, 01:18 PM
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Re: HondaEMS (GetawayInMoscow)
you ve been pmed we want to help out by all means we have tons of guys who use this clutch that are boosted and N/A with no problems
05-02-2007, 01:39 PM
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Re: HondaEMS (HondaEMS.com)
cool thanks for the review man. Note to self: stay away from cheap clutches 
Do you have any clutch chatter problems? and is your clutch fairly stiff? I have the 2ms in my gsr and have been running it for about 15000 miles. I have had chattering at idle with the clutch not pressed in, but goes away as soon as I step on the clutch. I wasn't sure if it was my orginal install or just clutch chatter related with the clutch. Also it is fairly stiff, I don't have any problems with it, but others have a hard time driving my car. I was wondering if its just me or did you have the same experience.
Do you have any clutch chatter problems? and is your clutch fairly stiff? I have the 2ms in my gsr and have been running it for about 15000 miles. I have had chattering at idle with the clutch not pressed in, but goes away as soon as I step on the clutch. I wasn't sure if it was my orginal install or just clutch chatter related with the clutch. Also it is fairly stiff, I don't have any problems with it, but others have a hard time driving my car. I was wondering if its just me or did you have the same experience.
05-02-2007, 02:18 PM
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Re: HondaEMS (TCS) vs. Action 2MD Clutch Review *LONG* (GetawayInMoscow)
not too stiff on pedal feel? My 2md was pretty damn stiff! i loved it thou....it never slipped and i would hit full boost daily 
05-02-2007, 02:27 PM
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Re: HondaEMS (m R g S r)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by m R g S r »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">not too stiff on pedal feel? My 2md was pretty damn stiff! i loved it thou....it never slipped and i would hit full boost daily </TD></TR></TABLE>
No my 2MD feels great. Very firm (a lot stiffer than stock) but not so stiff that I wish my car was an automatic.
</TD></TR></TABLE>No my 2MD feels great. Very firm (a lot stiffer than stock) but not so stiff that I wish my car was an automatic.
05-02-2007, 02:28 PM
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Re: HondaEMS (GetawayInMoscow)
Also my 2MD has no chatter at all. The TCS didn't at first either but after some WOT pulls and it slipping it started chattering pretty bad due to all the slipping, you should have seen what my flywheel looked like, glazed to all hell.
05-02-2007, 06:44 PM
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Re: HondaEMS (rota92)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by rota92 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Same problem I had on a buddies car, but it was just air somewhere after about an hour total lol</TD></TR></TABLE>
but air in the system would not cause slipping, only disengagement issues.
Same problem I had on a buddies car, but it was just air somewhere after about an hour total lol</TD></TR></TABLE>
but air in the system would not cause slipping, only disengagement issues.
05-02-2007, 06:45 PM
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Re: HondaEMS (LazyNip)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by LazyNip »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">cool thanks for the review man. Note to self: stay away from cheap clutches
Do you have any clutch chatter problems? and is your clutch fairly stiff? I have the 2ms in my gsr and have been running it for about 15000 miles. I have had chattering at idle with the clutch not pressed in, but goes away as soon as I step on the clutch. I wasn't sure if it was my orginal install or just clutch chatter related with the clutch. Also it is fairly stiff, I don't have any problems with it, but others have a hard time driving my car. I was wondering if its just me or did you have the same experience.</TD></TR></TABLE>
unsure what you are talking about. by normal definition a clutch cannot "chatter" at idle. Chattering refers to noise, vibration, and harshness upon engagement. Sounds like you have other issues.
Do you have any clutch chatter problems? and is your clutch fairly stiff? I have the 2ms in my gsr and have been running it for about 15000 miles. I have had chattering at idle with the clutch not pressed in, but goes away as soon as I step on the clutch. I wasn't sure if it was my orginal install or just clutch chatter related with the clutch. Also it is fairly stiff, I don't have any problems with it, but others have a hard time driving my car. I was wondering if its just me or did you have the same experience.</TD></TR></TABLE>
unsure what you are talking about. by normal definition a clutch cannot "chatter" at idle. Chattering refers to noise, vibration, and harshness upon engagement. Sounds like you have other issues.
05-02-2007, 07:05 PM
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Re: (HondaEMS.com)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by HondaEMS.com »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Don't worry man just sent you a pm well take care of you completely!</TD></TR></TABLE>
i have an TCS clutch on my shelf that i will be using soon. POST whatever you found to be wrong and how you are correcting it because i don't want any problems either.
i have an TCS clutch on my shelf that i will be using soon. POST whatever you found to be wrong and how you are correcting it because i don't want any problems either.
05-02-2007, 07:33 PM
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Re: (ndogg)
To be fair, I honestly think the test is inconclusive.
Loose clutch pressure plate bolt will cause slipping b/c the disk won't be able to apply all of its force.
Loose clutch pressure plate bolt will cause slipping b/c the disk won't be able to apply all of its force.
05-02-2007, 07:45 PM
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Re: (ndogg)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ndogg »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
i have an TCS clutch on my shelf that i will be using soon. POST whatever you found to be wrong and how you are correcting it because i don't want any problems either.</TD></TR></TABLE>
we don't have any problems the 235 clutch is an awesome clutch kit that includes everything you need! if you feel that your power may be an issue then we will now be offering our upgraded pressure plate kits for only a $100 more. to me that is an awesome price. like i stated previously these clutches are great and we have tons of people on this forum and tons off that use this clutch on boost and what not. the $235 clutch just has a stock oe pedal feel if thats a problem to some then you are more than welcome to upgrade. we try our best to strive in customer service and teh packaging situation has already been taken care of on our part and it wont happen again. what were seeing is people are expecting a super tight pedal feel when we post that our clutch has a SLIGHTLY stronger than stock pedal feel. we open to any questions that anyone may have.
i have an TCS clutch on my shelf that i will be using soon. POST whatever you found to be wrong and how you are correcting it because i don't want any problems either.</TD></TR></TABLE>
we don't have any problems the 235 clutch is an awesome clutch kit that includes everything you need! if you feel that your power may be an issue then we will now be offering our upgraded pressure plate kits for only a $100 more. to me that is an awesome price. like i stated previously these clutches are great and we have tons of people on this forum and tons off that use this clutch on boost and what not. the $235 clutch just has a stock oe pedal feel if thats a problem to some then you are more than welcome to upgrade. we try our best to strive in customer service and teh packaging situation has already been taken care of on our part and it wont happen again. what were seeing is people are expecting a super tight pedal feel when we post that our clutch has a SLIGHTLY stronger than stock pedal feel. we open to any questions that anyone may have.
05-02-2007, 09:25 PM
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Re: (HondaEMS.com)
I have a 2md also! I love the bite and grip, but I f**king dread the noise it makes while driving casually...it's like I'm doing a burnout(I sorta fixed it by grinding in 5th gear).
05-02-2007, 11:54 PM
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Re: (Jared)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Jared »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">btw, what does the cyrilic in your sig mean?</TD></TR></TABLE>
It means "Serbia to Tokyo"
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by sohc_turd »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">To be fair, I honestly think the test is inconclusive.
Loose clutch pressure plate bolt will cause slipping b/c the disk won't be able to apply all of its force.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Meng, you may be right, but I also know for a fact that all the bolts were tight when I put them on. The only difference is the second time around i loc-tited everything, but the Haynes says nothing about that in the first place.
A clutch slipping can definitely cause the bolts on the pressure plate to back out, it was slipping from the first time I boosted on it.
I really wish someone else that makes 300,400, or 500 whp would come in here and tell me that theirs is working fine.
When I bought the clutch I was under the impression that it would support 400 ft lbs of tq because thats what they advertised, but as soon as I bled it I knew something was up.
Have you ever felt the ACT clutches that support 411 ft lbs? Their clutch pedals are so stiff you almost have to stand on them with both feet, lol
It means "Serbia to Tokyo"
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by sohc_turd »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">To be fair, I honestly think the test is inconclusive.
Loose clutch pressure plate bolt will cause slipping b/c the disk won't be able to apply all of its force.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Meng, you may be right, but I also know for a fact that all the bolts were tight when I put them on. The only difference is the second time around i loc-tited everything, but the Haynes says nothing about that in the first place.
A clutch slipping can definitely cause the bolts on the pressure plate to back out, it was slipping from the first time I boosted on it.
I really wish someone else that makes 300,400, or 500 whp would come in here and tell me that theirs is working fine.
When I bought the clutch I was under the impression that it would support 400 ft lbs of tq because thats what they advertised, but as soon as I bled it I knew something was up.
Have you ever felt the ACT clutches that support 411 ft lbs? Their clutch pedals are so stiff you almost have to stand on them with both feet, lol
