Boosted96EK

Well I'm hitting the dyno this sat to clean up my AFR's and mess with my ignition a bit to see what I can get out of my SOHC-T @ 7psi... I running a pretty basic setup as follows:

Tubular manifold
Garrett/Air Research T3/T04 - .48 hot/.60 cold
Full 3" downpipe w/ AC
Greddy SP exhaust (going to be replaced w/ full 3" soon)
Tial WG 7psi spring
Greddy Type S
RC 550's w/ uber
Edelbrock Performer X manifold w/ B20 TB
Drag IC 2" from turbo to IC, 2.5" from IC to TB
-4 AN feed w/ project zum restrictor/ -10 AN drain
CM stage 3
ZRF7F-11 plugs gaped at .30
Mr. Gasket crankcase evacuation kit to pull oil vapors and what not into my DP and not my intake manifold

Currently my AFR's under boost are low 11's high 10's at times. Im going to shoot for a steady 11.5 under boost and I also need to clean up my part throttle a bit. Im pretty confident I can achieve my goals with my AFR's but I have a couple of questions about timing.

(A) Can timing be bumped up in vac to help spool? If so what would be the proper way to go about it. Column by column adding a degree making a pull monitor changes and plugs?

(B) In boost im running the basic step retard that uber has in 1.7... Now in my quest to get as close as possible to MBT while still staying on the safe side of things, how would I go about adding or removing timing? Again column by column add 1 degree and monitor changes? If everything is good add another and another untill i see signs of detonation on my plugs and back off a degree or so from that point?

What is the propper way of going about this. BTW this is my first car that I tune and its also the first car I've boosted.









Modified by Boosted96EK at 9:01 AM 7/25/2005

tissimo

to help spool you'll want to run richer and retard the ignition.. getting the fuel to burn in the manifold (think kinda like antilag). If you increase timing in vac it will give some more power and better drivablility. Give you more off boost power.. get to the high rpms to spool better quicker.


Add a little timing and see if it makes more power.. and just keep adding until it stops making power then back off a little bit.

On a dyno you dont have to pull the plugs. Just keep going till it stops making power.. when it stops making power it should be at MBT.. then just back it off a degree or so to keep it safe

cuin9sec

pretty nice man...

Boosted96EK

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tissimo &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">to help spool you'll want to run richer and retard the ignition.. getting the fuel to burn in the manifold (think kinda like antilag). If you increase timing in vac it will give some more power and better drivablility. Give you more off boost power.. get to the high rpms to spool better quicker.


Add a little timing and see if it makes more power.. and just keep adding until it stops making power then back off a little bit.

On a dyno you dont have to pull the plugs. Just keep going till it stops making power.. when it stops making power it should be at MBT.. then just back it off a degree or so to keep it safe </TD></TR></TABLE>

Thanks for the help, can you expand a bit I'm a newb ...
In the vac section you said to add timing... doesnt adding timing cause the fuel to be ignited sooner BTDC? Do I want the fuel to ignite sooner or a little later and closer to TDC? Also would I just select the whole hi and low ign maps with the exception of the idle area and add a degree?

Also I really dont care what numbers I make... Im happy that after all the time I spent getting screwed on a b-series build and the time I spent on researching and doing everything myself on my SOHC its finally in and im seeing positive pressures . My goal on sat is to clean up my maps, extract as much power as I can safely, Pop my dyno cherry and learn
Im doing the tuning myself and although the guy who owns the shop will try to give me pointers I feel that the best way to learn is to get hands on experience... I have another block and a set of SRP 9:1's at home for the future and more boost.


Modified by Boosted96EK at 9:22 AM 7/21/2005


Modified by Boosted96EK at 9:24 AM 7/21/2005

Dr. D-Series

Intake Mani looks sweet.

adseguy

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tissimo &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">to help spool you'll want to run richer and retard the ignition.. getting the fuel to burn in the manifold (think kinda like antilag).</TD></TR></TABLE>

No that is retarded

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tissimo &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
On a dyno you dont have to pull the plugs. Just keep going till it stops making power </TD></TR></TABLE>

This is also very retarded. I really hope you don't tune cars because checking plugs is SOOOOOO very important in knowning what's going on in an engine

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=979788 - pretty decent thread

You have the right idea about making power by adding timing until it stops making power, but you need datalogging to see where the timing takes effect and how interpolation works. It doesn't matter where the timing is what you want is the complete burn to end at 15-20* ATDC that's where you will exert the most pressure at the correct angle on the piston and rod getting you the most power. Read as much as you can until your dyno day, you are on the right track, but need to have a solid plan of exactly what runs and tuning you will do on the dyno. Remember also dyno AF's are different then on the street

Boosted96EK

Yeah I know my afr's are diffrent on the street.... my plan for that is to basically leave them as is and just try to get them as uniform as i can...
Also how would I know when the burn is completing? From my understanding MBT is achieved when the burn completes at 15-20* ATDC like you mentioned. So I would need to add or remove timing until i stop making power and that should yeild the burn process completing around 15-20* ATDC all the while checking my plugs for signs of detonation correct?

adseguy

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Boosted96EK &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
From my understanding MBT is achieved when the burn completes at 15-20* ATDC like you mentioned. So I would need to add or remove timing until i stop making power and that should yeild the burn process completing around 15-20* ATDC all the while checking my plugs for signs of detonation correct?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Not exactly. True, best power will be made at 15-20*, but with boost and the denser hotter charge we detonate a lot easier so we retard timing to avoid detonation while loosing a little power in exchange. Example: I am running stock pistons and running 16lbs. of boost for 303whp. Although it's a lot of boost to get that 303 my timing is very "conservative" so heat does not ruin my stock pistons as they are the weakest part in my setup. It's easy to avoid detonation, but cylinder pressures is what keeps a motor lasting for a long time. If you are making peak power (MBT so no detonation), that's great, but without built internals your stock pistons will, over time, get abused and wear out a lot faster. There's a lot more to this, this is just a taste .....mmmmm....tuning . So what is your plan for the dyno how are you doin every single run, how are you cooling the engine, how are you taking out the plugs, which ones? Questions like these should arise BEFORE going to the dyno. Also bring all tools needed incase of small repairs which always comeup

Boosted96EK

Tools never leave my trunk

My plan so far is to do a base run and see where I am at... As soon as i release the throttle I will shut off the car and pull the plugs... If I am good with the plugs I will leave timing as is until I get the fuel all nice and uniform. Once that is done I will add some timing in the vac section of the map.. Again shutting of car while its decelerating pulling plugs. Depending on what the dyno reads I will add or remove some timing.

Cooling is being taken care of by multiple fans... I expect to have about 5-10 mins in between runs..

What I would like help in is how to go about adding or removing timing in vac... Should I work on one column at a time? Thats what i need help on... I understand the theories behind what im trying to accomplish it... I just dont know where to start on improving my corrent state to the "desired state".


Modified by Boosted96EK at 12:57 PM 7/21/2005

adseguy

in vac, that's a little harder to do on a dynojet. On a dynapack and a few others (not sure which ones) you are able to hold a load and rpm so you can literally tune every cell in your map. This takes a lot of time though, so you are probably going to just make full throttle runs. I wouldn't worry to much about vac anyway. It's only for daily driving anyway. I'm guessing you want to adjust timing when in full throttle, but off boost right ? What you can do for that is go about 2k rpm below when you first build boost and nail the throttle. CAUTION: Low rpm high load is where our engine like to detonate the most!!!! This is why on a stock map you see the top right corner is VERY conservative. A lot of power can be extracted here, but again use caution. What EMS are you using? I can't stress enough how much you need datalogging on the laptop of your EMS. This is because even though you may make 7PSI of boost your map sensor may be reading it differently at say 5PSI, so even though you adjust the 7PSI column you may be doing nothing because the engine is reading only the 5PSI column and interpolating the values. This is very common and I can see this as a mistake most people can make. You have the right idea though for basic tuning on low boost. Remember, less timing and more boost is always better then the reverse. GL tuning

Boosted96EK

Is this the area you're talking about, the .35 column 2k rpm below where I begin to make boost?



This makes perfect sense to me... I feel like the car is dead when I nail it... AFR's are in the 12's - 11's in the 0.35 column but i think i could use more timing there. What incremends to you recommend I use to add? .50* in vac and .25* in boost?

As you can see I'm using uberdata.

adseguy

I like to move one degree at a time on a street tune because I have time. On a dyno I like to go by 1 or more because I can see where the power is at for a certain boost level or load level. Yes, that's the area I was talking about, although make sure when you floor it in low RPMS that the map is actually reading that section. It's totally normal if it doesn't, but it should be close. Mine and others I 've tuned are sometimes a column ahead or behind where your box is....get it? I never touched the lower end on the street before. I donno, I guess check your plugs and you can bump it up a couple degrees. Also in your 1.13 column you can keep 28.25 timing that you have in the .35 column an in the 3.45 you may also advance one more degree, this should significantly help spool up. If it feels boggy or you see bad news on the plugs then just retard back to what you had. It shouldn't though since you aren't making much power while you spool up.

evosol

what i usually do is leave the cells below 3000-3500RPM as is if your worried about high load-low RPM detonation.

I like to have the transition columns in the 12.5s. This type of fine tuning is best done on the street i think, same with your part throttle cells. On the dyno i just mainly focus on the max psi setting and a/f ratio through out the RPM range.

I"m no tuner pro but this is what i practice and have had good results... i look where peak torque occurs and where it starts to drop off. Since volumetric efficiency is at its greatest at peak torque, and also most prone to detonation (in a nutshell). Where Trq starts to drop off i increase ignition ( VE drops, so does charge density). I increase in small increments till no more gains are made, then back it off at your descretion. while doing this make sure to check plugs too.

sorry my post is choppy i'm at school...

p.s. naturally its gonna feel a little soggy down low with that turbo. I suffer from the same characteristics.

Boosted96EK

Thanks for the help! I guess I will still worry until Im actually on the dyno and see how the car reacts to my changes... Hopefully I'll be able to post up a base run graph and final graph.

nerdsports

damn d00d, looks like you've been doing your homework.

i cant wait to see the #s you pull at the dyno and how your changes affect them and what not.

good luck.

Boosted96EK

Well heres a slight update... Hit the dyno on saturday and accomplished the results I wanted... Cleaned up air fuel, added timing, and learned. Now the numbers were extremly low but the reason for that is... My first boost newb mistake

You know that little metal ring that comes with your tial wastegate...? X100

Well I didnt think I needed to put it in and it didnt dawn on me that I should put it in until I was on the dyno... Needless to say I had a major exhaust leak pre turbo through my tial WG because I didnt put that ring in...

I did however learn a lot. I had never been on a dyno before and I went by myself so I had no help. I only ran into a small issue that was a vaccum leak because one of my lines came lose. I was able to gain 20 whp by adding 2* timing in the .035" and 1.13psi columns and 1* in the rest of the boost maps. I also pull the plugs at peak torque and there was no signs of detonation. I hit full boost @ 5200rpm and I was only reving to 6500rpm.

That same night I got home I put the ring on the WG and took the car for a spin. Wow what a difference I might say! I now hit full boost @ 4000rpm and the car feels a lot stronger (no **** ). This has been the single worst thing that has happened to me so far through the install and tuning process so I consider myself extremly lucky! I will be heading back to the dyno next time I get paid... I will add a bit more timing and most likely turn up the boost to 10psi.

Cliffs: I had a huge exhaust leak because I looked something over... Hit the dyno, managed gain 20whp w/ 2* of timing, learned a lot and will fell x10 more comfortable next time at the dyno. I estimate that the car should be around 170ish now that the exhasut leak is no longer and should be able to hit 200whp with some more tuning @ 7psi.

Top numbers were: 145WHP and 122 Ft. Lbs
Also would like to add that it was hot as hell (I mean Africa hot!) and the dyno needs more fans, they only had one. Next time I go I will bring another fan of my own...Will post up dyno sheets and vid soon

a1320addict

iTrader: (1)

get the 3 inch on before you dyno...
nice setup.....good luck and keep us posted

adseguy

Turn up the boost man . I see no reason not too. Max out that 1.75 bar map sensor go 10PSI. What's your total timing let's see that sheet.

Boosted96EK

Will post ign. maps later today but im at 21* @ 7psi

B18 WES

nice setup man.

gelstudios

lemme post the video!!!

&lt;- remind me to make a highway vid too

nerdsports

damn. that sucks that you had that exhaust leak.

i hope to see some better #s than that out of that size snail.

for tuning it yourself and all that.

Boosted96EK

Dyno Video is up... Just click on the link (save as wont work) and download will automatically start...
http://www.savefile.com/fileho...46591

You will also need quicktime in order to view it... In case you dont have quick time here is the link to the standalone download (without itunes): http://www.apple.com/quicktime....html