hf mani with adapter plate vs log mani
10-25-2006, 07:34 PM
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hf mani with adapter plate vs log mani
like it says guys is there a good diff. between a hf with adapter vs a log mani let me know i wanna know if it is worth doing
10-25-2006, 08:19 PM
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Re: hf mani with adapter plate vs log mani (blackccoupe)
HF - $0-$50, adapter $0-50 w/any turbo
Log - $50-$300, extra for non-t3 typically
Performance - both hinder flow like a motherfuc**r. High backpressure creates reversion to the point of being unsafe beyond 200whp. While I'm not really sure about that power level, I do know above that level people get real, build their motor, and/or get a manifold with a nice collector. You can't beat the price of a HF mani if you get it cheap, and the log is for people who don't trust OEM Honda cast iron strength. Or looks.
Realisticly, the difference between an HF mani and log mani is the diff beteen log mani and ramhorn in performance.
Log - $50-$300, extra for non-t3 typically
Performance - both hinder flow like a motherfuc**r. High backpressure creates reversion to the point of being unsafe beyond 200whp. While I'm not really sure about that power level, I do know above that level people get real, build their motor, and/or get a manifold with a nice collector. You can't beat the price of a HF mani if you get it cheap, and the log is for people who don't trust OEM Honda cast iron strength. Or looks.
Realisticly, the difference between an HF mani and log mani is the diff beteen log mani and ramhorn in performance.
10-25-2006, 08:22 PM
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Re: hf mani with adapter plate vs log mani (HiProfile)
iam running the hf setup now i was thinkin a log upgrade because the runners on the hf mani are so small, u think i will notice a diff doing the log
10-26-2006, 06:03 PM
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Wow... talk about misinformation... a log turbo mani is unsafe above 200whp?? Are you serious?
FWIW, 99% of all OEM turbo setups use log mani's. Not to mention the hundereds of HT users that have made over 300whp on pump gas with no log-related problems..
FWIW, 99% of all OEM turbo setups use log mani's. Not to mention the hundereds of HT users that have made over 300whp on pump gas with no log-related problems..
10-26-2006, 06:10 PM
#5
Re: (boostd92)
The coolest new ghetto way is to use the stock d16z6 manifold and make/buy a 2 to 1 merge to t3 flange topmount. Looks like a pretty slick way to do it to me.
10-26-2006, 06:23 PM
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over 200whp unsafe with a log manifold? The hell are you talkin about. Why do people come in here and post the most bs to others when they dont know ****. You can get well about 500whp with a log type manifold, damn i hate dumbasses like you.
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10-27-2006, 08:23 AM
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Re: (boostd92)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by boostd92 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Wow... talk about misinformation... a log turbo mani is unsafe above 200whp?? Are you serious?
FWIW, 99% of all OEM turbo setups use log mani's. Not to mention the hundereds of HT users that have made over 300whp on pump gas with no log-related problems..</TD></TR></TABLE>
Good god, its not bullshit - forgive me for using the wrong word, I should have used UNHEALTHY. But god knows few people undestand that word. If I wanted to start a flame olympics I would have said some **** about NA V6s spanking hondas or whatnot. The 'bullshit' I come in here spewing actually comes from one of the highly-respected eninge builders/tuners on this website. He knows engine theory like the Apperance & Cosmetic Section natives know JDM.
<U>What I consider safe (or healthy) is having a pressure differential of 2.5:1 or LESS between intake boost and exhaust manifold pressure</U>. At high rpm a log will surpass that, which coincidently is the same thing that happens with small AR turbine housings. Hinder flow and prevent scavenging.
Same goes for those OEM turbo manifolds. Ever notice how they run pig-rich in boost, and make pitiful BHP? Its called covering their asses. Since when did an auto mfg take a mass-prduced car and slap the best-of-the-best onto it? You pay hansomly for them to do it to the evo/sti over their base models. Anyways I'll pull a nice example out - Volvo S60, 2.5L turbo - 210 flywheel HP. Volvos use that ultra-sexy flat cast manifold like DSM's, except they have longer runners. When you push boost high, the manifold fights back. Even moreso when you have a manifold shapped like the common honda log.
What I'm trying to say is that anything is better than a 'simple' log manifold. I'm not really including cast 'logs' like revhard or blox in that statement. Upgrading to a log from a mani just isn't worth it, since 'shorty' or 'elf' style manifolds can be had for not much more, and thats a fraction of the overall cost when you include the cost to modify the DP and chargepipes.
FWIW, 99% of all OEM turbo setups use log mani's. Not to mention the hundereds of HT users that have made over 300whp on pump gas with no log-related problems..</TD></TR></TABLE>
Good god, its not bullshit - forgive me for using the wrong word, I should have used UNHEALTHY. But god knows few people undestand that word. If I wanted to start a flame olympics I would have said some **** about NA V6s spanking hondas or whatnot. The 'bullshit' I come in here spewing actually comes from one of the highly-respected eninge builders/tuners on this website. He knows engine theory like the Apperance & Cosmetic Section natives know JDM.
<U>What I consider safe (or healthy) is having a pressure differential of 2.5:1 or LESS between intake boost and exhaust manifold pressure</U>. At high rpm a log will surpass that, which coincidently is the same thing that happens with small AR turbine housings. Hinder flow and prevent scavenging.
Same goes for those OEM turbo manifolds. Ever notice how they run pig-rich in boost, and make pitiful BHP? Its called covering their asses. Since when did an auto mfg take a mass-prduced car and slap the best-of-the-best onto it? You pay hansomly for them to do it to the evo/sti over their base models. Anyways I'll pull a nice example out - Volvo S60, 2.5L turbo - 210 flywheel HP. Volvos use that ultra-sexy flat cast manifold like DSM's, except they have longer runners. When you push boost high, the manifold fights back. Even moreso when you have a manifold shapped like the common honda log.
What I'm trying to say is that anything is better than a 'simple' log manifold. I'm not really including cast 'logs' like revhard or blox in that statement. Upgrading to a log from a mani just isn't worth it, since 'shorty' or 'elf' style manifolds can be had for not much more, and thats a fraction of the overall cost when you include the cost to modify the DP and chargepipes.
10-27-2006, 08:33 AM
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Re: hf mani with adapter plate vs log mani (HiProfile)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by HiProfile »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"><u>High backpressure creates reversion </u>to the point of being unsafe beyond 200whp. While <u>I'm not really sure about that power level</u>, I do know above that level people get real, build their motor, and/or get a manifold with a nice collector. You can't beat the price of a HF mani if you get it cheap, and the log is for people who don't trust OEM Honda cast iron strength. Or looks.
Realisticly, the difference between an HF mani and log mani is the diff beteen log mani and ramhorn in performance.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Just wanted to emphasise how it should be read.
Realisticly, the difference between an HF mani and log mani is the diff beteen log mani and ramhorn in performance.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Just wanted to emphasise how it should be read.
10-27-2006, 12:25 PM
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Re: (HiProfile)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by HiProfile »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
What I'm trying to say is that anything is better than a 'simple' log manifold. I'm not really including cast 'logs' like revhard or blox in that statement. Upgrading to a log from a mani just isn't worth it, since 'shorty' or 'elf' style manifolds can be had for not much more, and thats a fraction of the overall cost when you include the cost to modify the DP and chargepipes.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Don't get all bent at us... there's a huge difference between "Unsafe" and "not optimal".
I think we all know logs aren't optimal.. if everyone could afford a quality ramhorn, there wouldn't be logs. Not to mention space constraints. A cast or log style is much easier to work with when your car retains p/s and a/c...
What I'm trying to say is that anything is better than a 'simple' log manifold. I'm not really including cast 'logs' like revhard or blox in that statement. Upgrading to a log from a mani just isn't worth it, since 'shorty' or 'elf' style manifolds can be had for not much more, and thats a fraction of the overall cost when you include the cost to modify the DP and chargepipes.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Don't get all bent at us... there's a huge difference between "Unsafe" and "not optimal".
I think we all know logs aren't optimal.. if everyone could afford a quality ramhorn, there wouldn't be logs. Not to mention space constraints. A cast or log style is much easier to work with when your car retains p/s and a/c...
10-28-2006, 07:52 PM
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Re: (boostd92)
Well the fact is that engine builder/tuner actually used the word unsafe. He also helps design manifolds and expects near-perfect volumetric effeciency past 8k, so I guess I should have taken it with a grain of salt. 
It actually gets to be unsafe in a fasion due to you not being able to run as much timing, as well as the extra retard in timing causing excessive heat put into the turbo & engine bay. I'm just 'bent' at honda-tech ppl for letting vaguely observed statistics making the facts, not engine theory that's been known since turbos were introduced.
I don't want to seem like a sore-***, but I want people to really think about turbos, rather than just say manifold X is safe to run XXXwhp because john and his dad both did it. That as well as looking at the price/performance ratio. Thats the main reason I hate NA, $2500 in parts to make 35% more whp?
It actually gets to be unsafe in a fasion due to you not being able to run as much timing, as well as the extra retard in timing causing excessive heat put into the turbo & engine bay. I'm just 'bent' at honda-tech ppl for letting vaguely observed statistics making the facts, not engine theory that's been known since turbos were introduced.
I don't want to seem like a sore-***, but I want people to really think about turbos, rather than just say manifold X is safe to run XXXwhp because john and his dad both did it. That as well as looking at the price/performance ratio. Thats the main reason I hate NA, $2500 in parts to make 35% more whp?
10-29-2006, 11:35 AM
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Re: (HiProfile)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by HiProfile »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">It actually gets to be unsafe in a fasion due to you not being able to run as much timing, as well as the extra retard in timing causing excessive heat put into the turbo & engine bay. I'm just 'bent' at honda-tech ppl for letting vaguely observed statistics making the facts, not engine theory that's been known since turbos were introduced.</TD></TR></TABLE>
If you talk to the reputable tuners in the community, like Evans, etc.. there really is no issue with log manifolds at the power levels the OP is expecting. It's all in the tune. Yes, reducing timing causes heat, but a good tuner will see this on the WB and EGT and add fuel...
If you're going for 600+whp, you're not going to cheap out on a log anyway... you'll be spending $1000+ on a quality turbo (like a big GT), and a few thousand on a built motor.... what's a few hundered more for a well designed manifold.
In cases where people are boosting their stock longblocked car and trying to make a reliable 250-300whp, you don't need to dump thousands in... a log manifold will be just fine as long as you have a competant tuner.
If you talk to the reputable tuners in the community, like Evans, etc.. there really is no issue with log manifolds at the power levels the OP is expecting. It's all in the tune. Yes, reducing timing causes heat, but a good tuner will see this on the WB and EGT and add fuel...
If you're going for 600+whp, you're not going to cheap out on a log anyway... you'll be spending $1000+ on a quality turbo (like a big GT), and a few thousand on a built motor.... what's a few hundered more for a well designed manifold.
In cases where people are boosting their stock longblocked car and trying to make a reliable 250-300whp, you don't need to dump thousands in... a log manifold will be just fine as long as you have a competant tuner.
10-29-2006, 01:25 PM
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Re: (boostd92)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by boostd92 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
If you talk to the reputable tuners in the community, like Evans, etc.. there really is no issue with log manifolds at the power levels the OP is expecting. It's all in the tune. Yes, reducing timing causes heat, but a good tuner will see this on the WB and EGT and add fuel...
If you're going for 600+whp, you're not going to cheap out on a log anyway... you'll be spending $1000+ on a quality turbo (like a big GT), and a few thousand on a built motor.... what's a few hundered more for a well designed manifold.
In cases where people are boosting their stock longblocked car and trying to make a reliable 250-300whp, you don't need to dump thousands in... a log manifold will be just fine as long as you have a competant tuner.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Well said. Theory is one thing....what works in the real world is completely different.
If you talk to the reputable tuners in the community, like Evans, etc.. there really is no issue with log manifolds at the power levels the OP is expecting. It's all in the tune. Yes, reducing timing causes heat, but a good tuner will see this on the WB and EGT and add fuel...
If you're going for 600+whp, you're not going to cheap out on a log anyway... you'll be spending $1000+ on a quality turbo (like a big GT), and a few thousand on a built motor.... what's a few hundered more for a well designed manifold.
In cases where people are boosting their stock longblocked car and trying to make a reliable 250-300whp, you don't need to dump thousands in... a log manifold will be just fine as long as you have a competant tuner.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Well said. Theory is one thing....what works in the real world is completely different.
10-29-2006, 01:43 PM
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Re: hf mani with adapter plate vs log mani (HiProfile)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by HiProfile »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Just wanted to emphasise how it should be read.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Sometimes its better to give a nice, short & sweet answer and leave all the tech talk out.
I know this is Honda-Tech, but i've tried doing the same thing as u sooo many times and it ends up in arguments. lol
good posts btw
Sometimes its better to give a nice, short & sweet answer and leave all the tech talk out.
I know this is Honda-Tech, but i've tried doing the same thing as u sooo many times and it ends up in arguments. lol
good posts btw
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