Help a Toyota guy? :) AFC hack for speed-density car (like Honda)
10-09-2007, 09:17 AM
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Help a Toyota guy? :) AFC hack for speed-density car (like Honda)
Hi, I'm an HT member of about a year or 2 and I own a GSR swapped 2000 Civic hatch as a daily driver, and I've never had a better DD. It runs mid 14's, gets 30mpg, has p/s, a/c, p/w, a nice audio system, etc. I love it.
However, my project car is a 1992 Toyota MR2 Turbo. This year I swapped in a 95 JDM Gen3 motor. The original motor was a AFM-based EFI system that was easily tapped for an SAFC.
The gen3 motor is a full speed-density system. No AFM, only IAT, and MAP.
Currently I'm running a GT28RS @ 15psi and making 291whp on a stock longblock. The car comes with 540cc injectors stock, and I have a walbro. The rail and FPR are good for up to 500whp.
The GT28RS is flow limitted to about 350-375whp in .63 A/R trim. My 550cc injectors on race gas are good enough for 350-360whp at safe duty cycles (on race gas or similar).
I'm going to install a methanol injection kit. Bascially this acts as a fuel source, and a chemical intercooler... meth can reduce IAT's up to 100f. It basically is a band-aid for my mid-engine faults of having to run only an upgraded sidemount intercooler.
I plan to run as much boost as the GT28RS will let me, as the turbo can't flow any more air than about 360whp worth on my setup, and my injectors can handle that.
However, there are two issues:
1) Meth will allow me to run high boost without knock, but adds fuel causing me to run rich.
2) The real advantage to running meth is advancing the timing, but I have no way to do this on a stock ECU (and I don't have plans to change ECUs).
I've decided that perhaps the best way to solve both problems would be to install an SAFC. This way I can lean out the top end just a little bit (Meth adds about 10-15% fuel), and it will automatically advance my timing. I can run up to 10 more degrees of timing on meth, safely.
Can someone explain to me how I would setup the SAFC to work on a speed-density car like mine? I know Hondas do it all the time. I'm not running bigger injectors, so I don't need any fuel modification EXCEPT at boost levels above 10-15psi.
I heard you can setup the SAFC to adjust only by TPS, and hook the TPS up to your MAP. Can anyone explain this with more detail? I would assume that way, I could tell where certain boost points were by looking at my boost gauge vs. SAFC's fake TPS readout and just trim fuel at the TPS readouts that = 10+psi.
Does this sound reasonable? Any pointers? Thanks a million!!!!
However, my project car is a 1992 Toyota MR2 Turbo. This year I swapped in a 95 JDM Gen3 motor. The original motor was a AFM-based EFI system that was easily tapped for an SAFC.
The gen3 motor is a full speed-density system. No AFM, only IAT, and MAP.
Currently I'm running a GT28RS @ 15psi and making 291whp on a stock longblock. The car comes with 540cc injectors stock, and I have a walbro. The rail and FPR are good for up to 500whp.
The GT28RS is flow limitted to about 350-375whp in .63 A/R trim. My 550cc injectors on race gas are good enough for 350-360whp at safe duty cycles (on race gas or similar).
I'm going to install a methanol injection kit. Bascially this acts as a fuel source, and a chemical intercooler... meth can reduce IAT's up to 100f. It basically is a band-aid for my mid-engine faults of having to run only an upgraded sidemount intercooler.
I plan to run as much boost as the GT28RS will let me, as the turbo can't flow any more air than about 360whp worth on my setup, and my injectors can handle that.
However, there are two issues:
1) Meth will allow me to run high boost without knock, but adds fuel causing me to run rich.
2) The real advantage to running meth is advancing the timing, but I have no way to do this on a stock ECU (and I don't have plans to change ECUs).
I've decided that perhaps the best way to solve both problems would be to install an SAFC. This way I can lean out the top end just a little bit (Meth adds about 10-15% fuel), and it will automatically advance my timing. I can run up to 10 more degrees of timing on meth, safely.
Can someone explain to me how I would setup the SAFC to work on a speed-density car like mine? I know Hondas do it all the time. I'm not running bigger injectors, so I don't need any fuel modification EXCEPT at boost levels above 10-15psi.
I heard you can setup the SAFC to adjust only by TPS, and hook the TPS up to your MAP. Can anyone explain this with more detail? I would assume that way, I could tell where certain boost points were by looking at my boost gauge vs. SAFC's fake TPS readout and just trim fuel at the TPS readouts that = 10+psi.
Does this sound reasonable? Any pointers? Thanks a million!!!!
10-09-2007, 09:26 AM
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Re: Help a Toyota guy? :) AFC hack for speed-density car (boostd92)
do a search on line for GReedy and HKS, PowerFC (fuel controllers), also there are MR2, Supra, 1JZ, 2JZ forums out there also for you to get a better answer, I am a HT guy too and I do not play with the Toyota forums but have seen them. Ultimetly you are gong to need a laptop and software to build your own maps, I am not a tuner but some of my friends are, but Nissan is more popular in Japan.
10-09-2007, 09:36 AM
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Re: Help a Toyota guy? :) AFC hack for speed-density car (Duane_in_Japan)
Thanks for the reply, but I don't think I was clear.
My goal with this car is to have STOCK like driveability. That's why I'm NOT changing the injectors. The only fuel curve modification I need is above 15psi.
Unfortunately for MR2's, the only EMS's available that are P&P are the AEM, PowerFC, and Hydra Nemesis. All of which, including tuning, will run me north of $2,000 and closer to $3,000.
Right now, I'm 50whp away from maxing out my turbo. I love this turbo's response and am not interested in changing it.
However, I cannot justify spending $3,000 for 50whp. The meth kit is $360, and a used SAFC is about $150.
I was hoping someone familiar with hacking a SAFC to read boost as a TPS % could chime in, since I hear Honda's do it a lot.
The MR2 forums aren't of much help because the majority of knowledge is based around the AFM-based USDM gen2 motor. Not many people have a map-based Gen3 and experienced with map-based AFC tuning.
My goal with this car is to have STOCK like driveability. That's why I'm NOT changing the injectors. The only fuel curve modification I need is above 15psi.
Unfortunately for MR2's, the only EMS's available that are P&P are the AEM, PowerFC, and Hydra Nemesis. All of which, including tuning, will run me north of $2,000 and closer to $3,000.
Right now, I'm 50whp away from maxing out my turbo. I love this turbo's response and am not interested in changing it.
However, I cannot justify spending $3,000 for 50whp. The meth kit is $360, and a used SAFC is about $150.
I was hoping someone familiar with hacking a SAFC to read boost as a TPS % could chime in, since I hear Honda's do it a lot.
The MR2 forums aren't of much help because the majority of knowledge is based around the AFM-based USDM gen2 motor. Not many people have a map-based Gen3 and experienced with map-based AFC tuning.
10-09-2007, 10:18 AM
#4
Re: Help a Toyota guy? :) AFC hack for speed-density car (boostd92)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by boostd92 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Thanks for the reply, but I don't think I was clear.
My goal with this car is to have STOCK like driveability. That's why I'm NOT changing the injectors. The only fuel curve modification I need is above 15psi.
Unfortunately for MR2's, the only EMS's available that are P&P are the AEM, PowerFC, and Hydra Nemesis. All of which, including tuning, will run me north of $2,000 and closer to $3,000.
Right now, I'm 50whp away from maxing out my turbo. I love this turbo's response and am not interested in changing it.
However, I cannot justify spending $3,000 for 50whp. The meth kit is $360, and a used SAFC is about $150.
I was hoping someone familiar with hacking a SAFC to read boost as a TPS % could chime in, since I hear Honda's do it a lot.
The MR2 forums aren't of much help because the majority of knowledge is based around the AFM-based USDM gen2 motor. Not many people have a map-based Gen3 and experienced with map-based AFC tuning.</TD></TR></TABLE>
we put a SAFC on an SRT4 and used map output instead of TPS to tune. i forgot exactly why its better like that but my buddy is the AFC expert. there is a write up on srtforums thats tells exactly how to use map as a TPS signal, why to use it and how it works. go look in the tuning section of SRTforums and look for the SAFC insatall thread, i believe its sticky.
My goal with this car is to have STOCK like driveability. That's why I'm NOT changing the injectors. The only fuel curve modification I need is above 15psi.
Unfortunately for MR2's, the only EMS's available that are P&P are the AEM, PowerFC, and Hydra Nemesis. All of which, including tuning, will run me north of $2,000 and closer to $3,000.
Right now, I'm 50whp away from maxing out my turbo. I love this turbo's response and am not interested in changing it.
However, I cannot justify spending $3,000 for 50whp. The meth kit is $360, and a used SAFC is about $150.
I was hoping someone familiar with hacking a SAFC to read boost as a TPS % could chime in, since I hear Honda's do it a lot.
The MR2 forums aren't of much help because the majority of knowledge is based around the AFM-based USDM gen2 motor. Not many people have a map-based Gen3 and experienced with map-based AFC tuning.</TD></TR></TABLE>
we put a SAFC on an SRT4 and used map output instead of TPS to tune. i forgot exactly why its better like that but my buddy is the AFC expert. there is a write up on srtforums thats tells exactly how to use map as a TPS signal, why to use it and how it works. go look in the tuning section of SRTforums and look for the SAFC insatall thread, i believe its sticky.
10-09-2007, 11:24 AM
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Re: Help a Toyota guy? :) AFC hack for speed-density car (boostd92)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by boostd92 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
My goal with this car is to have STOCK like driveability. That's why I'm NOT changing the injectors. The only fuel curve modification I need is above 15psi.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
you will not get this with a S-AFC hack so stop trying.
with the S-AFC hack you need to run WAY over sized injectors, also you can't tune closed looped with a S-AFC so the drivability and the partial boost situations can get dangerously lean to way to rich.
the ONLY way to get stock like driveability on a heavily modified motor or motor running more then just basic bolt ons is to get a real EMS. I know they cost a lot of money but your thinking of tuning all wrong.
your not spending 3000 for just 50whp... your spending 3000 for he following:
yes more peak horsepower
more midrange ESPECIALLY on a turbo car where you can fully tune the closed loop
increased gas millage
stock like drivability
and basically a lot faster car.
Just because your running meth doesn't mean you can just advance your timing, when you run more boost you need to retard your timing. The more boost, the bigger the retard our going to have to do. You will not be able to control this with S-AFC, and I can tell you that with a different turbo on our motor your tuning is not going to be as easy as just pulling 2 degree timing across the board and your done.
Boosted motors need a lot of attention and you need complete control of your maps both timing and fuel and you need to be able to control them independently to tune a boosted motor running 15psi on a turbo like that. Thats just too much CFM to be messing around with an AFC hack taht gives problems to people making only 50whp over stock.
This is our project car... DO it right, I know I didn't answer your question, and yes I could give you the information but honestly I don't feel right leading down a path that WILL blow up your motor.
DO it right or don't do it at all, would your rather spend 2-3gs and have a car you'll LOVE to drive, will drive like stock and be WAY more powerful ALL over espeically in the midrange and in closed loop(on the street) or do you want to save that 2700 now and just put it back into rebuilding your motor again because you tried to skimp out on the most IMPORTANT part of any build wiether it be turbo or N/A
you can decide, the S-AFC is NOT a fuel solution to boosting a car, it was invented by N/A guys that wanted to keep their N/A parts way back when before boosting your car was the in thing to do. They were firguring **** out on a trial and error basis.... the S-AFC is an error.
My goal with this car is to have STOCK like driveability. That's why I'm NOT changing the injectors. The only fuel curve modification I need is above 15psi.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
you will not get this with a S-AFC hack so stop trying.
with the S-AFC hack you need to run WAY over sized injectors, also you can't tune closed looped with a S-AFC so the drivability and the partial boost situations can get dangerously lean to way to rich.
the ONLY way to get stock like driveability on a heavily modified motor or motor running more then just basic bolt ons is to get a real EMS. I know they cost a lot of money but your thinking of tuning all wrong.
your not spending 3000 for just 50whp... your spending 3000 for he following:
yes more peak horsepower
more midrange ESPECIALLY on a turbo car where you can fully tune the closed loop
increased gas millage
stock like drivability
and basically a lot faster car.
Just because your running meth doesn't mean you can just advance your timing, when you run more boost you need to retard your timing. The more boost, the bigger the retard our going to have to do. You will not be able to control this with S-AFC, and I can tell you that with a different turbo on our motor your tuning is not going to be as easy as just pulling 2 degree timing across the board and your done.
Boosted motors need a lot of attention and you need complete control of your maps both timing and fuel and you need to be able to control them independently to tune a boosted motor running 15psi on a turbo like that. Thats just too much CFM to be messing around with an AFC hack taht gives problems to people making only 50whp over stock.
This is our project car... DO it right, I know I didn't answer your question, and yes I could give you the information but honestly I don't feel right leading down a path that WILL blow up your motor.
DO it right or don't do it at all, would your rather spend 2-3gs and have a car you'll LOVE to drive, will drive like stock and be WAY more powerful ALL over espeically in the midrange and in closed loop(on the street) or do you want to save that 2700 now and just put it back into rebuilding your motor again because you tried to skimp out on the most IMPORTANT part of any build wiether it be turbo or N/A
you can decide, the S-AFC is NOT a fuel solution to boosting a car, it was invented by N/A guys that wanted to keep their N/A parts way back when before boosting your car was the in thing to do. They were firguring **** out on a trial and error basis.... the S-AFC is an error.
10-09-2007, 12:36 PM
#6
Re: Help a Toyota guy? :) AFC hack for speed-density car (DCxMagus)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DCxMagus »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
you will not get this with a S-AFC hack so stop trying.
with the S-AFC hack you need to run WAY over sized injectors, also you can't tune closed looped with a S-AFC so the drivability and the partial boost situations can get dangerously lean to way to rich.
the ONLY way to get stock like driveability on a heavily modified motor or motor running more then just basic bolt ons is to get a real EMS. I know they cost a lot of money but your thinking of tuning all wrong.
your not spending 3000 for just 50whp... your spending 3000 for he following:
yes more peak horsepower
more midrange ESPECIALLY on a turbo car where you can fully tune the closed loop
increased gas millage
stock like drivability
and basically a lot faster car.
Just because your running meth doesn't mean you can just advance your timing, when you run more boost you need to retard your timing. The more boost, the bigger the retard our going to have to do. You will not be able to control this with S-AFC, and I can tell you that with a different turbo on our motor your tuning is not going to be as easy as just pulling 2 degree timing across the board and your done.
Boosted motors need a lot of attention and you need complete control of your maps both timing and fuel and you need to be able to control them independently to tune a boosted motor running 15psi on a turbo like that. Thats just too much CFM to be messing around with an AFC hack taht gives problems to people making only 50whp over stock.
This is our project car... DO it right, I know I didn't answer your question, and yes I could give you the information but honestly I don't feel right leading down a path that WILL blow up your motor.
DO it right or don't do it at all, would your rather spend 2-3gs and have a car you'll LOVE to drive, will drive like stock and be WAY more powerful ALL over espeically in the midrange and in closed loop(on the street) or do you want to save that 2700 now and just put it back into rebuilding your motor again because you tried to skimp out on the most IMPORTANT part of any build wiether it be turbo or N/A
you can decide, the S-AFC is NOT a fuel solution to boosting a car, it was invented by N/A guys that wanted to keep their N/A parts way back when before boosting your car was the in thing to do. They were firguring **** out on a trial and error basis.... the S-AFC is an error.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
have you ever, had/driven/tuned a factory boosted car with an SAFC?
you will not get this with a S-AFC hack so stop trying.
with the S-AFC hack you need to run WAY over sized injectors, also you can't tune closed looped with a S-AFC so the drivability and the partial boost situations can get dangerously lean to way to rich.
the ONLY way to get stock like driveability on a heavily modified motor or motor running more then just basic bolt ons is to get a real EMS. I know they cost a lot of money but your thinking of tuning all wrong.
your not spending 3000 for just 50whp... your spending 3000 for he following:
yes more peak horsepower
more midrange ESPECIALLY on a turbo car where you can fully tune the closed loop
increased gas millage
stock like drivability
and basically a lot faster car.
Just because your running meth doesn't mean you can just advance your timing, when you run more boost you need to retard your timing. The more boost, the bigger the retard our going to have to do. You will not be able to control this with S-AFC, and I can tell you that with a different turbo on our motor your tuning is not going to be as easy as just pulling 2 degree timing across the board and your done.
Boosted motors need a lot of attention and you need complete control of your maps both timing and fuel and you need to be able to control them independently to tune a boosted motor running 15psi on a turbo like that. Thats just too much CFM to be messing around with an AFC hack taht gives problems to people making only 50whp over stock.
This is our project car... DO it right, I know I didn't answer your question, and yes I could give you the information but honestly I don't feel right leading down a path that WILL blow up your motor.
DO it right or don't do it at all, would your rather spend 2-3gs and have a car you'll LOVE to drive, will drive like stock and be WAY more powerful ALL over espeically in the midrange and in closed loop(on the street) or do you want to save that 2700 now and just put it back into rebuilding your motor again because you tried to skimp out on the most IMPORTANT part of any build wiether it be turbo or N/A
you can decide, the S-AFC is NOT a fuel solution to boosting a car, it was invented by N/A guys that wanted to keep their N/A parts way back when before boosting your car was the in thing to do. They were firguring **** out on a trial and error basis.... the S-AFC is an error.
</TD></TR></TABLE>have you ever, had/driven/tuned a factory boosted car with an SAFC?
10-09-2007, 12:44 PM
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Re: Help a Toyota guy? :) AFC hack for speed-density car (CoreyR)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by CoreyR »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">have you ever, had/driven/tuned a factory boosted car with an SAFC? </TD></TR></TABLE>
thats true, but there isnt any cheap tuning options for Toyota/Nissan?
No way to modify the stock ECU or something cheap like DSM link?
thats true, but there isnt any cheap tuning options for Toyota/Nissan?
No way to modify the stock ECU or something cheap like DSM link?
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10-09-2007, 12:48 PM
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Re: Help a Toyota guy? :) AFC hack for speed-density car (CoreyR)
I respect what you are trying to do, and I admit again I am not a tuner since the ol small block chevy days, but only wanting to tune above 15 PSI, just never heard of it, but good luck, a thought, if your TPS has a WOT switch then this is where you will get your source to turn on any extra needed fuel, just a thought in case you want to do a work around. My RX7 guys put the extra injectors in the air piping before the throttle body, maybe an extra 1100cc.
Have you looked into any old school fuel controllers, still electronic but manually adjustable from the cockpit. From the 80s I would say. Hell it may only be some form of boost control, what do I know. It had three manual turn *****.
Have you looked into any old school fuel controllers, still electronic but manually adjustable from the cockpit. From the 80s I would say. Hell it may only be some form of boost control, what do I know. It had three manual turn *****.
10-09-2007, 01:36 PM
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Re: Help a Toyota guy? :) AFC hack for speed-density car (CoreyR)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by CoreyR »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
have you ever, had/driven/tuned a factory boosted car with an SAFC? </TD></TR></TABLE>
yes, I have.
have you ever, had/driven/tuned a factory boosted car with an SAFC? </TD></TR></TABLE>
yes, I have.
10-09-2007, 01:42 PM
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Re: Help a Toyota guy? :) AFC hack for speed-density car (DCxMagus)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DCxMagus »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
you will not get this with a S-AFC hack so stop trying.
with the S-AFC hack you need to run WAY over sized injectors, also you can't tune closed looped with a S-AFC so the drivability and the partial boost situations can get dangerously lean to way to rich.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Sorry, I guess I used the wrong terminology. I did a bit more searching and "SAFC hack" is not the right term on these forums. I guess on HT the "hack" involves running bigger injectors fooling the AFC to think it's a different sensor setup or car.
The "hack" on other car forums means to run an aux. map sensor (in addition to your stock one) simply for the SAFC, and tell the SAFC that the map sensor is actually a TPS. That way, you can chart what %TPS (voltage from 0-5V) equals what PSI.
THAT'S what I intend to do. That way, the SAFC will never even interfere with my car until I'm above 15psi. Then it will pull some fuel out, and that's it. Stock injectors, stock ecu, stock driveability.
you will not get this with a S-AFC hack so stop trying.
with the S-AFC hack you need to run WAY over sized injectors, also you can't tune closed looped with a S-AFC so the drivability and the partial boost situations can get dangerously lean to way to rich.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Sorry, I guess I used the wrong terminology. I did a bit more searching and "SAFC hack" is not the right term on these forums. I guess on HT the "hack" involves running bigger injectors fooling the AFC to think it's a different sensor setup or car.
The "hack" on other car forums means to run an aux. map sensor (in addition to your stock one) simply for the SAFC, and tell the SAFC that the map sensor is actually a TPS. That way, you can chart what %TPS (voltage from 0-5V) equals what PSI.
THAT'S what I intend to do. That way, the SAFC will never even interfere with my car until I'm above 15psi. Then it will pull some fuel out, and that's it. Stock injectors, stock ecu, stock driveability.
10-09-2007, 01:45 PM
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And for what it's worth, DcXMagus, your advice applies to NA cars gone turbo.
You do not necessarily need to retard timing for more boost on a factory turbo'd car. That kind of timing control is built in.
And you're so far off on my project I don't know where to begin. I suppose it's my fault for asking SAFC questions about a Toyota on a Honda forum, but you seriously do not know what you're talking about.
What pertains to a 1.8L N/A honda that's strung up with FI does not necessarily apply to a JDM 2.0L 3SGTE that has factory fueling for this size turbo and basic bolt-ons.
You do not necessarily need to retard timing for more boost on a factory turbo'd car. That kind of timing control is built in.
And you're so far off on my project I don't know where to begin. I suppose it's my fault for asking SAFC questions about a Toyota on a Honda forum, but you seriously do not know what you're talking about.
What pertains to a 1.8L N/A honda that's strung up with FI does not necessarily apply to a JDM 2.0L 3SGTE that has factory fueling for this size turbo and basic bolt-ons.
10-09-2007, 02:43 PM
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Re: (boostd92)
If you need more help come to the right place : http://www.celicatech.com
Honda-tech is cool and all but they don't have alot of experience with your setup...
Are you using KO Racing's 28rs kit ? or is this a custom kit ?
We had a member just do a GT3071R conversion ...
here's your pin outs:
http://www.mr2.com/forums/gen-....html
SAFC wires go as follows:
Power -> B+
Ground ->E1 or E2 or any other ECU or sensor ground
RPM -> IGT (Ignition Trigger)
and then you have 3 wires left:
sensor in -> PIM sensor side
sensor out -> PIM ECU side
(this way you have intersepted the MAP signal (which is PIM) and modified it before it reaches the ECU, which will allow you to lean/richen your fuel curve)
Throttle-> I'd suggest you wire this wire from the SAFC to the activation wire on your water injection rather than your TPS wire. This way if you want you can use a dual boost controller and have a daily low boost setting (say 7psi, water injection off, AFC stays in the 'low throttle' map which is actually the 'methanol off' map).
Then you can have your second setting (15-17psi, water injection on, safc in the 'high throttle' map because it's activated by a combination of your high boost and your water injection activation switches).
Once you have this done you have to change your sensor select in the AFC for pressure and set your TPS to rising or falling depending on how your meth activatio nworks (switched power or switched ground).
And you're good to go.
Again pop into our forum for more info ...
http://www.celicatech.com
Honda-tech is cool and all but they don't have alot of experience with your setup...
Are you using KO Racing's 28rs kit ? or is this a custom kit ?
We had a member just do a GT3071R conversion ...
here's your pin outs:
http://www.mr2.com/forums/gen-....html
SAFC wires go as follows:
Power -> B+
Ground ->E1 or E2 or any other ECU or sensor ground
RPM -> IGT (Ignition Trigger)
and then you have 3 wires left:
sensor in -> PIM sensor side
sensor out -> PIM ECU side
(this way you have intersepted the MAP signal (which is PIM) and modified it before it reaches the ECU, which will allow you to lean/richen your fuel curve)
Throttle-> I'd suggest you wire this wire from the SAFC to the activation wire on your water injection rather than your TPS wire. This way if you want you can use a dual boost controller and have a daily low boost setting (say 7psi, water injection off, AFC stays in the 'low throttle' map which is actually the 'methanol off' map).
Then you can have your second setting (15-17psi, water injection on, safc in the 'high throttle' map because it's activated by a combination of your high boost and your water injection activation switches).
Once you have this done you have to change your sensor select in the AFC for pressure and set your TPS to rising or falling depending on how your meth activatio nworks (switched power or switched ground).
And you're good to go.
Again pop into our forum for more info ...
http://www.celicatech.com
10-09-2007, 03:01 PM
#16
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Re: (boostd92)
no problem
i have the same name on ctech, just post your questions in the Forced Induction forum and you'll get all the help you need there, we have a few Gen2 swappers and a few gen3 swappers...
Our Admins are mr2 guys too for the most part...
i have the same name on ctech, just post your questions in the Forced Induction forum and you'll get all the help you need there, we have a few Gen2 swappers and a few gen3 swappers...
Our Admins are mr2 guys too for the most part...
10-09-2007, 03:06 PM
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Re: (nuclearhappines)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nuclearhappines »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Are you using KO Racing's 28rs kit ? or is this a custom kit ?</TD></TR></TABLE>
It's an ATS-Racing kit.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Throttle-> I'd suggest you wire this wire from the SAFC to the activation wire on your water injection rather than your TPS wire. This way if you want you can use a dual boost controller and have a daily low boost setting (say 7psi, water injection off, AFC stays in the 'low throttle' map which is actually the 'methanol off' map).</TD></TR></TABLE>
That's not a bad idea... though the point of useing meth + 93 octane is so I *don't* have to run race gas.... meth is better than race gas anyway because it acts as both an octane raiser and a chemical intercooler (race gas doesn't do anything about your IAT's).
I guess my question was about the TPS hack... basically you wire a GM 3-bar to the SAFC's Throttle input. That way it sees boost as TPS% and you can get better resolution (not using any of the 12? resolution points below your onset boost %). So how do you make adjustments with an SAFC? Is it only based on RPM? I don't care about RPM, I'd like it to make fuel adjustments based on TPS %. Is that possible?
Sorry if that's unclear. I don't acutally mean making adjustments based on my car's TPS... I mean making adjustment on what the SAFC thinks is a TPS (which is actually a GM 3-bar map sensor).
Modified by boostd92 at 6:16 PM 10/9/2007
It's an ATS-Racing kit.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Throttle-> I'd suggest you wire this wire from the SAFC to the activation wire on your water injection rather than your TPS wire. This way if you want you can use a dual boost controller and have a daily low boost setting (say 7psi, water injection off, AFC stays in the 'low throttle' map which is actually the 'methanol off' map).</TD></TR></TABLE>
That's not a bad idea... though the point of useing meth + 93 octane is so I *don't* have to run race gas.... meth is better than race gas anyway because it acts as both an octane raiser and a chemical intercooler (race gas doesn't do anything about your IAT's).
I guess my question was about the TPS hack... basically you wire a GM 3-bar to the SAFC's Throttle input. That way it sees boost as TPS% and you can get better resolution (not using any of the 12? resolution points below your onset boost %). So how do you make adjustments with an SAFC? Is it only based on RPM? I don't care about RPM, I'd like it to make fuel adjustments based on TPS %. Is that possible?
Sorry if that's unclear. I don't acutally mean making adjustments based on my car's TPS... I mean making adjustment on what the SAFC thinks is a TPS (which is actually a GM 3-bar map sensor).
Modified by boostd92 at 6:16 PM 10/9/2007
10-09-2007, 03:18 PM
#18
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Re: (boostd92)
the SAFC is 2 dimensional
1st Dimension is RPM , which gives you the 12 adjustment points.
2nd Dimension is "TPS", which gives you 2 maps
each map has the same 12 adjustment points.
But there is a Throttle point setting in the SAFC, that you can set to 20% 80% for example
which means below 20% stay in the Lo Throttle map which is map1 (Which has 12 setting points by rpm, at low throttle).
Also, Above 80% stay in the Hi Throttle map (which also has 12 settin points).
Here's an example
Low throttle map: 4000 rpms: correction = -10%
High throttle map: 4000 rpms: correction = 30%
at 4000 rpms, at 50% throttle the SAFC will average 30-(-10) * (50-20)/(80-20) = 20%
the closer you get to 80% throttle the closer the correction will get to 30%
the closer you get to 20% throttle the closer the correction will get to -10%.
The 'MAP Hack' you're talking about uses a MAP sensor instead of the TPS input. This is good in low throttle / high load situations where the typical SAFC will see low throttle and apply very little corrections, when in fact you may be at a significant amount of boost trying to climb up a hill and need some boost enrichment.
You don't need a GM 3 bar.
Wire the SAFC TPS wire to the sensor side of the PIM wire that you cut to intercept...
Keep in mind your stock map sensor is a 2.5 bar.
so if you want corrections above 10psi for example ,that would be (10+15)/(2.5*15) = 66%
so set your HI 'throttle' (high boost) to 66% and your 'low throttle' (low boost) to something like 20% keep your low throttle settings zeroed out and dial in the high
settings you want...
make sense ?
1st Dimension is RPM , which gives you the 12 adjustment points.
2nd Dimension is "TPS", which gives you 2 maps
each map has the same 12 adjustment points.
But there is a Throttle point setting in the SAFC, that you can set to 20% 80% for example
which means below 20% stay in the Lo Throttle map which is map1 (Which has 12 setting points by rpm, at low throttle).
Also, Above 80% stay in the Hi Throttle map (which also has 12 settin points).
Here's an example
Low throttle map: 4000 rpms: correction = -10%
High throttle map: 4000 rpms: correction = 30%
at 4000 rpms, at 50% throttle the SAFC will average 30-(-10) * (50-20)/(80-20) = 20%
the closer you get to 80% throttle the closer the correction will get to 30%
the closer you get to 20% throttle the closer the correction will get to -10%.
The 'MAP Hack' you're talking about uses a MAP sensor instead of the TPS input. This is good in low throttle / high load situations where the typical SAFC will see low throttle and apply very little corrections, when in fact you may be at a significant amount of boost trying to climb up a hill and need some boost enrichment.
You don't need a GM 3 bar.
Wire the SAFC TPS wire to the sensor side of the PIM wire that you cut to intercept...
Keep in mind your stock map sensor is a 2.5 bar.
so if you want corrections above 10psi for example ,that would be (10+15)/(2.5*15) = 66%
so set your HI 'throttle' (high boost) to 66% and your 'low throttle' (low boost) to something like 20% keep your low throttle settings zeroed out and dial in the high
settings you want...
make sense ?
10-09-2007, 03:30 PM
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hrm... so the TPS input is only to determine which low/high RPM-based map you use.
That makes sense though... I could just tap my stock MAP sensor for the AFC's TPS input. Then with the key on, engine off, I could hook a bicycle pump up to my stock MAP sensor and watch the SAFC. When my boost gauge reads the desired pressure (probably 13-15psi), just right down what the SAFC is reading for TPS %.
Then just set that as my high throttle point and keep the low zeroed.
That should work, thanks!
Can you move the RPM adjustment points around? I'll never be at 15psi below 2500rpm. Can I move all my adjustment points between 2500 and 7500rpm or are they at set intervals (like every 500rpm). That wouldn't be so bad.
That makes sense though... I could just tap my stock MAP sensor for the AFC's TPS input. Then with the key on, engine off, I could hook a bicycle pump up to my stock MAP sensor and watch the SAFC. When my boost gauge reads the desired pressure (probably 13-15psi), just right down what the SAFC is reading for TPS %.
Then just set that as my high throttle point and keep the low zeroed.
That should work, thanks!
Can you move the RPM adjustment points around? I'll never be at 15psi below 2500rpm. Can I move all my adjustment points between 2500 and 7500rpm or are they at set intervals (like every 500rpm). That wouldn't be so bad.
10-09-2007, 03:45 PM
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Re: (boostd92)
depends which exact version SAFC you have...
on my old SAFCII I think there were 8 fixed points (1000 to 8000 rpms) and 4 'NE' points which you could set in 500 rpm incrments. I know the newer AFC had 200 rpm increments, and I think the AFC NEO is 16 points as low as 100 rpm increments, but this is all running off of memory.
Just look around the SAFC settings menus for 'NE' points and set them up where you want them to maximize your tuning resolution.
on my old SAFCII I think there were 8 fixed points (1000 to 8000 rpms) and 4 'NE' points which you could set in 500 rpm incrments. I know the newer AFC had 200 rpm increments, and I think the AFC NEO is 16 points as low as 100 rpm increments, but this is all running off of memory.
Just look around the SAFC settings menus for 'NE' points and set them up where you want them to maximize your tuning resolution.
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