RC000E

Like I said in the title, I have yet to do any local E85 tunes. Noone really understands E85 locally (based on the guys I've met), so noone really has it's potential benefits in mind. Feeling like I'm really lagging behind having no experience in this area I figure I'll just tune my own to get a feel.

I understand what E85's demands are fuel wise and have read about what timing E85 generally likes, so I just wanted to get some input or anything that might help out the process.

I'm going to run Precision 880's, with the walbro on Crome Pro. I'm gonna start out with 15 psi GT3071r on an LS/vtec. Where do 880's max hp wise on E85...low to mid 400's?

JDMisGOOD

880's will definately be enough for 15psi with that turbo. You should be able to get 400-440whp out of the injectors as well.

RC000E

I figure I'll feel out 15, then go up to 20, then probably stop there. That should put me in the 400whp area.

quicksilver1689

whats the effective octane of E85?

nowtype

105 octane.

Fuel system issues are really easy to calculate. I don't know why people have issues. Take whatever value you'd be able to do on gasoline and divide it by 1.3.

Tuning E85 isn't that big of a concept. Tune the AFR. Advance timing until power stops increasing or detonation occurs, which ever happens to occur first.

0xenocron

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nowtype &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">105 octane.

Fuel system issues are really easy to calculate. I don't know why people have issues. Take whatever value you'd be able to do on gasoline and divide it by 1.3.

Tuning E85 isn't that big of a concept. Tune the AFR. Advance timing until power stops increasing or detonation occurs, which ever happens to occur first.</TD></TR></TABLE>


Is all E85 everywhere the same though? I think they approach the term "E85" more like a brand and in different areas I believe there are varying ranges of how much Ethanol are at each pump.

Thus the reason the flex fuel vehicles have sensors to measure varied levels of Ethanol from the pump.

You could also blend regular 10% Ethanol High Octane pump with E85 pump I suppose...

nowtype

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by xenocron &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">


Is all E85 everywhere the same though? I think they approach the term "E85" more like a brand and in different areas I believe there are varying ranges of how much Ethanol are at each pump.

Thus the reason the flex fuel vehicles have sensors to measure varied levels of Ethanol from the pump.

You could also blend regular 10% Ethanol High Octane pump with E85 pump I suppose...</TD></TR></TABLE>

I figured we were going based on the assumption we are running the cars on summer blend rather than winter blend. Thus 15% gasoline and 85% ethanol.

More gasoline in the blend = less fuel system demand and lower octane. More ethanol in the blend = more fuel system demand and higher octane.

Like you said and has been stated before, get an ethanol monitor if you plan on running high hp on "E85" year round.

http://www.megamanual.com/flexfuel.htm

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
The fuel sensor uses a microprocessor to measure the ethanol percentage and fuel temperature, which it uses to produce and output signal. The fuel sensor signal is a square-wave voltage signal. The signal varies in both frequency and pulse width:

* The frequency of the signal indicates the ethanol percentage. The output frequency is linear with respect to the percentage of ethanol content in the fuel. The PCM provides an internal pull-up to five volts on the signal circuit, and the fuel sensor pulls the 5 volts to ground in pulses. The normal range of operating frequency is between 50 and 150 Hertz:
o 50 Hertz indicates 0% ethanol, and
o 150 Hertz indicates 100% ethanol.

* The pulse width indicates the fuel temperature. The normal pulse width is between 1 and 5 milliseconds:
o 1 millisecond indicates -40°C (-40°F), and
o 5 milliseconds indicates 125°C (257°F).
</TD></TR></TABLE>


Modified by nowtype at 8:56 PM 12/13/2007

IT'S ME DAVID

iTrader: (1)

so e85 is 105 octane how safe is that @ 30 psi on a turbo car compared to 30psi on c16.

0xenocron

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by IT’S ME DAVID &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">so e85 is 105 octane how safe is that @ 30 psi on a turbo car compared to 30psi on c16.</TD></TR></TABLE>

The answer is "It Depends"

I'm sure with proper tune and proper mechanical operation...a motor would be fine at 30 psi on E85.

Compared with C16, it is certainly less safe though...C16 has a higher octane rating.

HiProfile

One thing about E85 people don't get is that its OXYGENATED fuel. Gasoline has just carbon & hydrogen atoms (and lead for C16). The ethanol in E85 contains its own oxygen, meaning less air needed for the same power. People who;ve done turbo hondas on E85 say its around 8%+ whp with E85 over pump gas. Nitromethane is like that in the sense it too has oxygen in it, and needs a ton of fuel for the same volume of air - but makes a crapton of power. People always stress the "it needs more fuel for XX whp" because they don't know about the oxygen atoms.

So E85 carries its own oxygen, ends up with ~105 octane, burns cooler, burns cleaner, and can also be burnt leaner for 'cruising'. C16 is illegal to run on ANY streetable car IN ALL STATES, while its just against the law to convert any car labeled as "unleaded fuel only" to an alternative w/o EPA certifications.


As for the other ethanol-related heresay:

1) Federal law requires ethanol slated for fuel use be denatured, in this case with ~4% gasoline. This is why summer blend E85 is around 81% ethanol.

2) Winter blend has ~67% ethanol in it, otherwise your car would run like crap on the fuel (needs to be fairly warm to atomize). You can always ask the station what they are running atm.

3) Regular gas in teh USA can be up to 10% ethanol. UP TO. That means that E85 is usually going to be MORE CONSISTANT than your normal pump gas.

4) GM Flex cars aren't E85-only. THey have the sensor in them in case you mix E85 with regualar gas (which is liek "E10")

5) C16 is made for off-road use only, and there's always that chance a shady dealer will be diluting it. Again, its bound to be less consistant than E85.

IT'S ME DAVID

iTrader: (1)

THE YELLOW GAS CAN F&LTHE C12 ITS OXYGENATED ALSO AND IS CHEAPER THEN 76 C16 SO IS THAT BETTER THEN C16 ANS E85

Jbates42

I just formed a new racing fuel company specializing in ethanol blended fuels,are name is PRONOL racing fuel and we are based in Sacramento CA. I have been reading the posts regarding E85 on this site and they have educated me on a whole new area of ethanol use. I am a sprint car driver so most of my racing life as been in the "dirt" my motivation behind running ethanol was quite frankly to able to breath again, sometimes in the sprint car the methanol fumes are so bad you can not take a breath. PRONOL racing fuel is able to control all aspects of the blending process in other words e85 will consistently be 85% ethanol 15% gasoline. we are also able to blend a high octane gasoline as the denaturing agent. in other words we can create any octane level up to 116 (200 proof ethanol). we also sell e98 (off road use only)

MidShipCivic

Methanol is awesome though !

RC000E

Alright....got a question. I finally got my DelSol full of E85 (well E70 since it's winter.. )...anyway, I started out with workin my idle. The 880's didn't idle to well on gas, but on E85 I was able to get them right at 2% duty and see about 13.5 a/f (scaled for gas).

I free revved to see some other map areas and was getting misfires at 11.0:1 ranges. From what I've read, basically whatever lambda your motor likes is basically the lambda it'll like with E85...clearly, so why the misfires? Maybe I'm being overly cautious, but I just feel like I'm in the unknown which isn't a common feeling for me honestly.

Since the E85 burns cooler, is anyone seeing heat ranges of plugs needing changed to a hotter range? I'm gonna head out on the road tomorrow or the next day. I'm just walking cautiously for the moment until I get comfortable with it.

JDMisGOOD

Sounds like you need to lean out the tables you were hittin when free revving. Or add some timing.

RC000E

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JDMisGOOD &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Sounds like you need to lean out the tables you were hittin when free revving. Or add some timing.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

Well....clearly.....but on gasoline you don't get misfires at 11:1 is my point. Just wondering about the quirks of this fuel or any unexpected behaviors I wasn't aware of. When I dropped those area's to 11.8-12.0 it cleared up.

Guess I'll just feel it out overall and see what happens.

JDMisGOOD

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RC000E &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Well....clearly.....but on gasoline you don't get misfires at 11:1 is my point. Just wondering about the quirks of this fuel or any unexpected behaviors I wasn't aware of. When I dropped those area's to 11.8-12.0 it cleared up.

Guess I'll just feel it out overall and see what happens.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yeah it doesn't like to be that rich with out more timing.

dbiker207

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RC000E &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I free revved to see some other map areas and was getting misfires at 11.0:1 ranges. From what I've read, basically whatever lambda your motor likes is basically the lambda it'll like with E85...clearly, so why the misfires? Maybe I'm being overly cautious, but I just feel like I'm in the unknown which isn't a common feeling for me honestly.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

you need to reset the wideband. i found this: (You are confusing true AFR with the gasoline calibrated AFR that is reported on most wide bands.
When working with E85 or E85 blends you are much better dealing with the lamba value reported by the wideband. It is accurate regardless of the fuel in the tank. The AFR reported by most widebands assumes the fuel being used is gasoline. The wideband O2 sensor, actually reads the fuel air mixture in terms of Lambda and then internally computes (converts it to) a gasoline calibrated AFR where stoich mixture is assumed to be 14.7:1.

Stoich for any fuel is Lambda 1.0 Most users find that in closed loop, the wideband will report Lambda 0.98 -1.02 regardless of fuel (if the ECU has enough fuel trim authority to get back to stoich).

Most of us shoot for a Lambda of about 0.78 - 0.85 on E85. To determine what gasoline calibrated AFR the wide band will display with those values simply multiply the Lambda value by the gasoline stoich AFR of 14.7.

That means if you are running a lamba of 0.85 on E85 the wideband will tell you your AFR is (0.85 x 14.7 = 12.495) gasoline calibrated AFR, even though your true AFR (on pure E85 with a stoch of 9.8 AFR) would really be AFR(e85) of 8.33:1.

Most folks adopt one of two strategies, either think only in terms of Lambda values or only use gasoline calibrated AFR's. Since most tuners are familiar with what is rich and what is lean in gasoline calibrated AFR's it is easy to think in those terms. On E85 the cars run quite well on gasoline calibrated AFR's near 11.5 - 12.5 in most cases. Heavily turbocharged or supercharged will be toward the rich end of that scale (or a bit richer) and NA cars toward the lean end.

Larry) originaly posted at http://e85vehicles.com/e85/index.php?topic=750.0

lambda is: your afr/stoich for the fuel (9.7 for e85)
11/14.7(stoich for gas)=.068 lambda

inspector01

Im looking at running E85 this spring, and idk if my injectors are going to be big enough. Im looking at at least 400, probably closer to 450whp on 880s with a walbro. Should i get bigger injectors??

JDMisGOOD

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by inspector01 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Im looking at running E85 this spring, and idk if my injectors are going to be big enough. Im looking at at least 400, probably closer to 450whp on 880s with a walbro. Should i get bigger injectors?? </TD></TR></TABLE>

I'd go with 1000's for some cushion

Redwidow

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RC000E &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Since the E85 burns cooler, is anyone seeing heat ranges of plugs needing changed to a hotter range? I'm gonna head out on the road tomorrow or the next day. I'm just walking cautiously for the moment until I get comfortable with it.</TD></TR></TABLE>

We used NGK 8's on my E85 tunned civic and gapped at .018

96 GSR-T

Still using typical Bkr7E gapped to .016-.018, I had them gapped at .021 and on the dyno around 540whp or so it started to blow out.

RC000E

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by dbiker207 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

you need to reset the wideband. i found this: (You are confusing true AFR with the gasoline calibrated AFR that is reported on most wide bands.
When working with E85 or E85 blends you are much better dealing with the lamba value reported by the wideband. It is accurate regardless of the fuel in the tank. The AFR reported by most widebands assumes the fuel being used is gasoline. The wideband O2 sensor, actually reads the fuel air mixture in terms of Lambda and then internally computes (converts it to) a gasoline calibrated AFR where stoich mixture is assumed to be 14.7:1.

Stoich for any fuel is Lambda 1.0 Most users find that in closed loop, the wideband will report Lambda 0.98 -1.02 regardless of fuel (if the ECU has enough fuel trim authority to get back to stoich).

Most of us shoot for a Lambda of about 0.78 - 0.85 on E85. To determine what gasoline calibrated AFR the wide band will display with those values simply multiply the Lambda value by the gasoline stoich AFR of 14.7.

That means if you are running a lamba of 0.85 on E85 the wideband will tell you your AFR is (0.85 x 14.7 = 12.495) gasoline calibrated AFR, even though your true AFR (on pure E85 with a stoch of 9.8 AFR) would really be AFR(e85) of 8.33:1.

Most folks adopt one of two strategies, either think only in terms of Lambda values or only use gasoline calibrated AFR's. Since most tuners are familiar with what is rich and what is lean in gasoline calibrated AFR's it is easy to think in those terms. On E85 the cars run quite well on gasoline calibrated AFR's near 11.5 - 12.5 in most cases. Heavily turbocharged or supercharged will be toward the rich end of that scale (or a bit richer) and NA cars toward the lean end.

Larry) originaly posted at http://e85vehicles.com/e85/index.php?topic=750.0

lambda is: your afr/stoich for the fuel (9.7 for e85)
11/14.7(stoich for gas)=.068 lambda </TD></TR></TABLE>

What you've posted makes no sense. There is no "resetting" a wideband. Lambda is lambda, it doesn't matter what converted value I tune it in. If the motor runs well tuned to .82 lambda, then it'll run well at that lambda value on E85 or gasoline. So just tune to the a/f ratio of gasoline that yields that lambda value. The O2 doesn't care what gas it is.






Modified by RC000E at 6:20 PM 1/9/2008

dbiker207

you were the one talking in terms of afr, i was suggesting looking at it in lambda. i read through the whole thread again and i dont see where the info was that i "reposted". sorry i tried to help

on my innovate lm1 i can set stoich for the fuel im using, so the afr is correct.

RC000E

Do you understand that .85 lambda is .85 lambda?

.85 lambda on gas is 12.5:1
.85 lambda on E85 is 8.2:1

So if I want to tune E85 to .85 lambda I don't need to rescale it to some numbers I'm not used to, I just tune it to 12.5 like normal.

E85 apparently likes a slightly richer lambda under high loads from what I've read, but it's not far departed from gasoline.

I understand your trying to help, but your just shooting in the dark.