Eclipsed4ever

Hi there all.

I have a H22 (5th gen auto) powered offroader which I've been running for a couple of years now. I'm currently UK trials champion and largely I'm very happy with the Honda running gear. I have two different sized tyres I use, some 32" ones and some 39.5" ones and this is where the problem I have is. With the smaller tyres I have enough power/torque to trial without any real problems. When I have the larger tyres on though I'm struggling for bottom end torque and general pickup due to the longer effective gearing.

I'm looking at several possibilities to try and improve this:
- replacement engine. Space is at a bit of a premium and with the H22 being the 'wrong way round', other engines would be a big job to get in there.
- NOS. Always good fun but it does run out.
- Supercharger. I would love to S/C it but it seems to be an expensive option compared to turbo'ing. I'm open to any suggestions to make this more viable!
- Turbo. Seems to be a relatively good option for cost/performance.

This is 'Screamer':


Ok so I'm not really after peak power. Much of what I do is low speed with short sharp accelleration being key. I'm thinking a setup which offers a quick spool. Space shouldn't be a problem around the exhaust manifold. I don't want to have to split the motor for any internals for now so bolt ons are the way really. Minimal tuning would be good.

Right, some questions:

I'm thinking that a log manifold is probably the easiest for availability in the UK and cost as I'm not after monster power, and it has the shortest runners.

Turbo wise, I have little to no clue as to what size would be most suited. T25's are pretty available but would these hack it? I also have no idea as to what would be a safe level of boost on a stock motor. I don't want to risk blowing anything.

Would I get away with not running an intercooler or would this be a must? Less lag and saving space would be benefits of not running one. Also at low speed it's not like I'm getting much air flow through it?

In terms of tuning, would the stock injectors + management cope with mild boost?

Any thoughts/comments/advice greatly appreciated!

Natural Aspirations

IN my opinion if you could find a used Jackson racing supercharger it would best suit your lower rpm needs. A turbo can certainly work but your needs would be more well thought out and built to fit your specific needs. Injector upgrade may be necessary on either.

Honda automatics are not known for their ability to handle much TQ above stock, this may be a big concern for you down the road. For what it's worth a DSM (evo iii) engine/trans would likely better fit your needs/budget and has the correct layout similar to H22.

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

For the record I would totally try to MOT that thing and drive it everywhere lol

He would need a FWD 4g63 as these chassis have the motors mounted FR IIRC, the stock trans acts like a transfer case. However class rules may prohibit this (or not?)

It just seems like a lot of work when the setup already works so well he's the current champion... Changing anything on it at this point (even more power) would require refinement of his driving technique.

A small turbo on the H22 could certainly get it done, you would need a bigger (non-oem) fuel pump and injectors... and even though you're at a low wheel speed the engine won't be, and if the turbo is making any pressure then it's making heat, heat that is reducing power output and increasing strain on components, so an intercooler would be beneficial... A small air to air core with a high cfm fan mounted to it would ensure the charge air was cold, as you aren't going fast enough for air to naturally flow through the core and an air to water setup will require more space, more moving parts, another heat exhanger, pump, and lines... so you've got more possible mechanical failures to deal with as well as puncturing a heat exchanger or damaging a water line.... this also adds more weight

So an air to air system would be the simplest for your goals. What rpm range do you stay in the most? This would help us narrow down a suitable turbo for your needs

Eclipsed4ever

Natural Aspirations - If I could get my mitts on a supercharger this is the route I'd love to go. Firstly I think it would provide better very low end response but also because the kid in my loves the S/C whine.

On the subject of gearboxes, I was under the impression the 5th gen (what's in there at the moment) is weak when shifting. I've not heard anything about them suffering with torque. I was planning on swapping to a 4th gen auto which are renowned for being bulletproof, but again not sure on how well they take more power?

Wantboost - sounds like you've come across these before. I use the standard gearbox as a transfer box. The diff is welded solid providing 100% drive to the front and rear axles. The class I'm in is basically unlimited.

I do have space for a small intercooler so that wouldn't be a problem. As you suggest air cooled with a good fan would be the way I think. Simplicity is the key.

I'm already using a race spec high flow pump so thats OK. Bigger injectors is not a massive problem, it's just any remapping after that could cause more of a problem. With both axles steering it's probably not the easiest thing to strap down to a dyno! Or can you run bigger injectors on a standard ECU and the original map will adjust it's output as required?

At a guess I would say I'm normally running between 1500rpm and 3000rpm during general driving. It's a little hard to guess as I have no tacho. On climbs anything up to just below the limiter. In the higher rev ranges power doesn't seem to be such a problem, it's bottom end punch that I'm after.

Natural Aspirations

Have you considered having your converter re-stalled? That will shift your off idle rem up and move you into the higher TQ rpm range. A turbocharger is going to require complete re-mapping and tuning to get the most out of the setup.

There are 2 H22 Jackson racing supercharger kits a on eBay currently, that's going to be a direct bolt on affair that can be managed with a rising rate fuel pressure regulator (not perfect but works fine). IF it were me and I was crafty I would find a supercharger from a Mercedes (same base supercharger that Jackson uses) and figure a way to fabricate mounts ala air-konditiiner.

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

he would need to swap the drive gears on the mercedes charger (they rotate clockwise) or mount it using a pulley system that convets CCW rotation to CW. The 230 kmonpressor cars use a rather small supercharger... the 320 based motors (like the crossfire SRT) use a larger mercedes unit that like the 230 unit, has a drive clutch on the pulley ( so you could control it with a manual switch for on off or have the ecu control it or have it on all the time) The 320 unit is a v6 charger and has part of the runners cast to the charger but a bandsaw would solve that issue. A few companies also offer smaller pullies for the 320 unit for more boost (I used to have a crossfire so I can direct you to those companies)

A small turbo kit using a log mani and a smaller turbo, say a gt2860 or a 60 trim t3 would be perfect and far less effort

Balor_Gr

Looks nice!I believe EVERYONE of us would like this h22 lil beast.The problem is you need a very small turbo charger and because this is not a 15 second high speed run you gonna need a way things wont get fried with small turbine housing on a cast iron manifold...I would run a miniramhorn manifold, and a turbo T3 .63 a/r "stage 2 size" turbine wheel with the smallest compressor that flows 250 hp to the crank.T3 45 or 50 trim compressor wheel is what i would use.The 45 trim will run like a supercharger and at your engine will spool early as hell . With this setup you wont need much of a high boost to overcome backpressure and at the same time egt will be better.Im not an expert but at my mind this setup would work better from a cast iron + gt2860 for this vehicle on H22 engine for the duration of a race..

Freemananana

iTrader: (3)

Just throwing it out there, but you may want to look at what superchargers came from the factory and would work for your application. And maybe a side/top mount intercooler. Something is better than nothing after all. For injectors I would definitely step up to 440cc DSM injectors, which should be a dime a dozen, right? Should be easy to find and cheap.

Eclipsed4ever

Natural Aspirations - I've not considered the converter at all to be honest. Would this allow me to do the same low speed without having to slip the gearbox? Unfortunately the two chargers on ebay are out of my budget at the moment. It's certainly something I'll consider if/when I can afford it though. I think it'd have to be a kit that fits though as I think I'd struggle machining it to all fit.

Wantboost - you certainly seem to know your chargers! As NAs response really. When you say '60 trim', what does this refer to?

Balor - Thanks very much. It is a good laugh! I'm afraid you've lost me a little with '.63 a/r "stage 2 size" turbine'. Can you get different combinations of compressor and turbine? Would running an intercooler affect this setup much with the extra volume? A section can be upto 5 minutes so will heat soak be an issue without?

Freemananana - What S/C did you have in mind? Or were you thinking similar to wantboost had mentioned? I've had a look for injectors and I don't think they'll be a problem.

Eclipsed4ever

It's ok I've done some reading on turbo specifications. I know what a/r and trim is now

Balor_Gr

You dont have to worry about trim a lot.I used it cause the compressor is called that way.You can make any combination turbine compressor wheel etc from turbonetics site.
Im also sure that shodan will be the best guy to guide you.Im worried a little bit for your setup cause an actual RACE does not forgive mistakes on the combination of items installed unlike the usual "15 second long street race" car...

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

simply refers to the size of the wheel, it's a measurement of inducer and exducer in a ratio format basically

What confuses a lot of people is that any given wheel size can have the same trim as another, like a 60 trim straight t3 turbo as well as a 60 trim t3/t04e

If you have any specific questions and don't want to clutter/confuse your thread feel free to PM me

And yea, I've been doing the turbo thing for quite a while now (since I was 12 lol)

SiRCiviC94

eBay kit see how you like it. Full boost 3k

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

Not worth the risk for him... This isn't a leisure vehicle (it can be at times) but it's mainly a pure competition vehicle. If you consider the rigors of trials and how hard it strains components, everything from the suspension, tires, differentials, axles, motor, just the drivetrain in general, and even the driver then you'd know that having sub-quality parts is not an option

Especially when he's the current trials champion and has a title to ruthlessly defend, any component failure is simply unacceptable during competition

Eclipsed4ever

That's very much the case. Reliability is probably the number one priority for competing over a year. With 6 round there's little chance to make up for a breakdown. This is why it's heart is a honda, so far Ive had zero breakdowns. This is one reason I'm a little dubious about boosting.

I'm currently on the lookout for components but funds are tight as I've got 2 holidays to pay for.

Another option I'm looking at is the 3.0lr V6 from an accord. The torque curve looks better than the h22 with about 30% more bottom end. Would this figure be achievable with a turbo setup? I know it's all the wrong way round do it'd be a lot of work to get in there but I can pick up a whole low mileage car for $650. Also not sure how strong the gearboxes are?

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

A guy is making over 700whp on a stock j series v8 (on race gas) the motors are very overbuilt

Eclipsed4ever

That's good news. Do you have any info on the strength of the auto transmission? I'm struggling to find any info on them at all.

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

Unfortunately no I do not... You might want to start a thread in the appropriate prelude (for your h22) or the acura cl forum or the Transmission & Drivetrain forum (might get better, more precise answers there)

link to T&D

https://honda-tech.com/forums/transmission-drivetrain-127/

ps if I'm ever in the UK I want a ride lol

h24 eg

Why do not you consider the options with the highest crankshaft?
for example h23 stroke 95mm or 97mm f23 stroke,
I think even a 100mm stroke will reliably work on the engine speed that you use.

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

The 100mm stroke would be fine at his engine speeds, however, I feel that just stroking the motor alone will not produce the kind of low end/midrange torque he is looking for.

While it is a good start, an appropriately sized turbo in addition to the 100mm stroke would create a torque monster, having obscene amounts of low end power which is just what he needs, especially when he has to run the taller tires

h24 eg

Very strange talk about the Honda engine that should work for 3000 RPM with maximum torque is used to build all the engines with maximum efficiency at high speeds
But I still think if you go n \ a high crankshaft require longer pipes, intake manifold and compression
if a transmission -h, can benefit from the installation FD 5.15 and Gears EURO-R 2-2.090 3-1.481

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

I know right?

It's like asking a v8 to make torque at high rpm lol

Most honda motors, even the largest displacement versions, make **** for torque downlow... but that's why we have cool things like long stroke cranks and superchargers/turbochargers

He has an automatic trans behind his current h22, so he couldn't swap gearsets, all he could do is change the final drive

Freemananana

iTrader: (3)

Get a J35 from the Honda van with another automatic transmission. They are very common in the states. The transmissions are everywhere too. I know it doesn't work with your current motor, but if you want more torque without any problems, it is a good solution. The J37 motors are nice too, but they come with an AWD transmission. Not sure how that would work with your rear mounted motor.

But if you are staying H-series. I know there is a toyota previa supercharger I've seen on many motors that adds 30+ish HP and Torque. They can be had for a cheap price and aside from a tune, they aren't very hard or expensive to install. There are probably better options out there though, as far as the supercharger goes. I'm not sure what you can find used in your area.

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

If I were to supercharge this thing I would look at an Eaton M90 off the svo thunderbird or whatever it is, maybe even an m112 off the svt cobra and the svt f150/harley davidson f150.

Many people have mounted the M90 where the factory ac compressor sits and it fits like a glove, plus it offers the plus of having beefy, solid mounting points and offers lots of belt wrap, you can even add a secondary manual tensioner to insure the belt stays wrapped and doesn't slip