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GO-AUTOWORKS Rejuvenation Build Project..modest goals but custom w/ walk throughs
This is more of a rejuvenation/restoration build we're taking care of. The owner came in for a consult wanting to do a fun "weekend warrior mild" Honda build, but keep it custom. During that consult, he didn't own a Honda. We wen back and forth via email afterwords over w/ chassis options would be ideal etc. A few weeks later he picked up this car in GA and brought it straight in to get the ball rolling.
The goal here is to build a really responsive 250-400ish hp street car on E85, custom touches, a/c and p/s not needed. The suspension and other accommodating pieces to help solidify that goal will also be addressed here (plus a few cosmetics). I figured I would also take the opportunity to do some basic walk throughs on certain common parts to help answer some common Q's as this is a "start from scratch" build.
Re: GO-AUTOWORKS Rejuvenation Build Project..modest goals but custom w/ walk throughs
Originally Posted by Chance EG
Good deal. I think it's a rare case where a D build makes more sense than going the B route.
Originally Posted by Txdragon
when they want 600whp or less?
Peak hp wasn't really the deciding factor as the initial power goal could be made on any motor option. A D series takes a build, any other would basically do it on a stock block and have better accompanying parts with them to make more power in the future if need be. B series is just a better, more expandable platform in the "big picture", it doesn't matter how you cut it. I'm a fan of the D series, but it is what it is. The B series will also have much better and longer aftermarket support than the D series. At this point in time I would only build a D series here one of 2 ways 1. CSS, H beam, forged piston, or 2. Sleeved, H beam, forged piston. With that being said, a proper D series would initially cost more than a swap while also meeting it's accompanying parts limit sooner. Once all of the pros/cons and options were laid out (in short) then the owner took his time and made his motor selection.
Originally Posted by ls joker
Didnt you guys already complete this car back in the summer.
hows scottys build goin aswell
No, I have the bay empty ready to push the nose out front to pressure wash it right now.
Scotty's is coming along well. It's in the parts gathering process. I actually just ordered the TB for that build yesterday. It'll be long block assembly time soon.
Originally Posted by scottcraft
That's a sharp looking car. I'm looking forward to seeing the transformation.
Re: GO-AUTOWORKS Rejuvenation Build Project..modest goals but custom w/ walk throughs
Originally Posted by Autoworks
.......... A D series takes a build, any other would basically do it on a stock block and have better accompanying parts with them to make more power in the future if need be. B series is just a better, more expandable platform in the "big picture", it doesn't matter how you cut it. I'm a fan of the D series, but it is what it is. The B series will also have much better and longer aftermarket support than the D series. At this point in time I would only build a D series here one of 2 ways 1. CSS, H beam, forged piston, or 2. Sleeved, H beam, forged piston. With that being said, a proper D series would initially cost more than a swap while also meeting it's accompanying parts limit sooner. Once all of the pros/cons and options were laid out (in short) then the owner took his time and made his motor selection.
Re: GO-AUTOWORKS Rejuvenation Build Project..modest goals but custom w/ walk throughs
For me D series is cheap YCP/custom length rods 500$ combo with some supertech valve spring steel retainers for 350whp from a used
TD05-16G or a basic journal bearing turbo. That 350whp be :
-Cheaper from a B series swap with a forged piston rod combo turbo setup.
-More reliable from a B series turbo on a stock block/internals.
If you want just that responsive 350whp and you allready have a D16 on the car its the wise move. On the other hand if your thinking you ll need 400whp
Its still ok by going a CSS D series and still it will be more reliable from a stock sleeve B series. The problem is IF youre thinking of more than 400whp. Well things get difficult,
and a B swap is the best choice.
Re: GO-AUTOWORKS Rejuvenation Build Project..modest goals but custom w/ walk throughs
I smell the incoming B vs D debate again..
D series has weakness in places the B doesn't, and vice versa. The largest ACTUAL difference is that glass ceiling. The D is limited on output from the lack of a second cam. Costs of a RELIABLE build, both utilizing the same turbo setup; snail, mani, etc, same rods and pistons, I can bet will look damn near identical in cost. In fact, I'm willing to bet part for part, the D is less out the wallet than the B, if not the same..
Example..
ARP head studs.. same cost
Ferrea springs.. same cost
Ferrea 6k valves.. same cost
skunk2 rods.. same cost
Cp pistons.. advantage: D
GAW race kit with the same options, both engines.. same cost.
So this "B is cheaper" stuff is nonsense. The ONLY thing that makes it cheaper is that for minimal levels, you may not need internals.. No rods or pistons, you save what, 800 bucks? Still gonna need the basics to go with that kit though.
Now minimal levels differ between the series because of the Ds internal weakness; them rods tho (oddly enough, not the weakest link).. The B can pull off higher numbers on stock internals. But I'm willing to bet a year salary it's a gamble for the B to pull off the numbers a D can achieve, without sleeves or CSS.. Seen many a cracked B cylinder at or below 500hp.. Not to mention upgrades necessary to the B ignition system that the D does not require at all throughout it's maximum streetable output..
Gain vs money spent? Now THIS has weight, unless you're dropping that B into a civic it didn't originally come in. Then your gap is washed. Gonna eat up that 800 saved plus extra on a D2B swap and be about 2k in BEFORE even touching the turbo project. And don't dare even begin to think you're gonna buy an unknown condition used engine; junkyard, etc, and not rebuild it first before swapping/turboing.. You're asking for trouble then.
Cliffnote: I'm not a B hater. I'd love to build one some day. I just can't say I agree with the "B is cheaper" nonsense.
Re: GO-AUTOWORKS Rejuvenation Build Project..modest goals but custom w/ walk throughs
I’m a first hand experience of building D and B setups and there was no question that the B gave me more performance. I basically took all my parts off my D16z6 and bolted them back on my b18c1. D16d6 best track time was 13.05 @105mph @10-11psi and the B18c1 best time is 11.6 @119.91 @10.4 psi. Using the same turbo. The B just seems to have better end results and takes less effort IMO
Re: GO-AUTOWORKS Rejuvenation Build Project..modest goals but custom w/ walk throughs
Originally Posted by TheShodan
lol
Originally Posted by Balor_Gr
For me D series is cheap YCP/custom length rods 500$ combo with some supertech valve spring steel retainers for 350whp from a used
TD05-16G or a basic journal bearing turbo. That 350whp be :
-Cheaper from a B series swap with a forged piston rod combo turbo setup.
-More reliable from a B series turbo on a stock block/internals.
If you want just that responsive 350whp and you allready have a D16 on the car its the wise move. On the other hand if your thinking you ll need 400whp
Its still ok by going a CSS D series and still it will be more reliable from a stock sleeve B series. The problem is IF youre thinking of more than 400whp. Well things get difficult,
and a B swap is the best choice.
Understood, but a Vitara block just isn't a feasible option here. It isn't something I'd do for a client or customer on a build; but I do understand why people sill gravitate to the combination...it's cheap and "better" than a stock block. For me, if you are going to build the block, then build it with the "best" options, not the cheapest ones that will get you by. Do it once and be done.
A B and D series short block cost the exact same to build. You can "comfortably" go much further on a stock B series than you can on a stock D series. 3-400 is a very "gray" area in many ways either way...though the shade of gray is much lighter with a B. I'd hate to get long winded on the comparisons/opinions.experiences here...
Originally Posted by Txdragon
I smell the incoming B vs D debate again..
D series has weakness in places the B doesn't, and vice versa. The largest ACTUAL difference is that glass ceiling. The D is limited on output from the lack of a second cam. Costs of a RELIABLE build, both utilizing the same turbo setup; snail, mani, etc, same rods and pistons, I can bet will look damn near identical in cost. In fact, I'm willing to bet part for part, the D is less out the wallet than the B, if not the same..
Example..
ARP head studs.. same cost
Ferrea springs.. same cost
Ferrea 6k valves.. same cost
skunk2 rods.. same cost
Cp pistons.. advantage: D
GAW race kit with the same options, both engines.. same cost.
So this "B is cheaper" stuff is nonsense. The ONLY thing that makes it cheaper is that for minimal levels, you may not need internals.. No rods or pistons, you save what, 800 bucks? Still gonna need the basics to go with that kit though.
Now minimal levels differ between the series because of the Ds internal weakness; them rods tho (oddly enough, not the weakest link).. The B can pull off higher numbers on stock internals. But I'm willing to bet a year salary it's a gamble for the B to pull off the numbers a D can achieve, without sleeves or CSS.. Seen many a cracked B cylinder at or below 500hp.. Not to mention upgrades necessary to the B ignition system that the D does not require at all throughout it's maximum streetable output..
Gain vs money spent? Now THIS has weight, unless you're dropping that B into a civic it didn't originally come in. Then your gap is washed. Gonna eat up that 800 saved plus extra on a D2B swap and be about 2k in BEFORE even touching the turbo project. And don't dare even begin to think you're gonna buy an unknown condition used engine; junkyard, etc, and not rebuild it first before swapping/turboing.. You're asking for trouble then.
Cliffnote: I'm not a B hater. I'd love to build one some day. I just can't say I agree with the "B is cheaper" nonsense.
**end rant**
The only "weakness" a B has that isn't "as present" with the D is the seemingly fail prone distributors...which at this point wouldn't be a deciding factor for anything as they are so easy to get around.
It isn't just the lack of a second camshaft that "limits" the power of the D series. Absolute peak power isn't an immediate issue or one that will even be seen here really. How it makes power and what surrounds it is more of a factor.
D series and B series short blocks cost the same (if you exclude adding the B girdle). As a whole, a B series cyl head would cost more to build; which you also have a better selection to choose from. B options will continue to grow, D options will continue to shrink (blame it on the dedicated "replica works just as well "crowd).
This could go on and on...but in the end. "Which is a better platform" really isn't a debate at all; and that's coming from someone that thoroughly enjoys the D series, has built several, has helped R&D parts for the motor with a few co's, and has raced with the motor competitively. The B is a great platform. That isn't saying the D series is a bad platform. The B is actually more of a "combination challenge" for me personally. I have the " D series recipe", it's fairly easy at this point in time.
(I also only get motors from HMO)
Originally Posted by turboLScrx
I’m a first hand experience of building D and B setups and there was no question that the B gave me more performance. I basically took all my parts off my D16z6 and bolted them back on my b18c1. D16d6 best track time was 13.05 @105mph @10-11psi and the B18c1 best time is 11.6 @119.91 @10.4 psi. Using the same turbo. The B just seems to have better end results and takes less effort IMO
It is what it is, and that isn't a knock on the D series.
Originally Posted by Chance EG
I didn't intend to derail this thread into a D vs. B debate, and I don't think that's what Gregg wanted either.
I think we've hashed this out enough times over the years and everyone is (mostly) in agreement anyway.
Re: GO-AUTOWORKS Rejuvenation Build Project..modest goals but custom w/ walk throughs
I agree with autoworks. One thing allot of people overlook when they do the cost to hp ratio is the power out of boost. A 2.0l b series has a good amount of torque as well as much more displacement to spool a larger turbo with ease. I've ridden in a 480whp d series and a 480whp b series, I can tell you they are far from the same thing. As everyone knows also b series trannys are stronger, as are the axles. B series offers better gearing, or more selection besides hypermiling choices. I've always enjoyed d series the most in mostly stock form making 220whp or so. They are super fun for someone getting into building cars, parts are cheap and plentiful for oem stuff although now with age stuff is allot more worn out then it was when i first got into hondas. They are both great platforms just for two different things in my opinion.
Re: GO-AUTOWORKS Rejuvenation Build Project..modest goals but custom w/ walk throughs
With converting to e85 what is the fuel build/layout going to be? I will be ordering a turbo kit from you guys this spring and am in the works this month ordering everything to upgrade the fuel system, LSV sleeved, arias pistons I believe 10.5:1, looking for 500 max on e85. After researching I was looking in -8an lines, walbro 450, aero fpr 13101 but the 13101 has a -6 return line Thanks
Re: GO-AUTOWORKS Rejuvenation Build Project..modest goals but custom w/ walk throughs
Originally Posted by hondacurious
With converting to e85 what is the fuel build/layout going to be? I will be ordering a turbo kit from you guys this spring and am in the works this month ordering everything to upgrade the fuel system, LSV sleeved, arias pistons I believe 10.5:1, looking for 500 max on e85. After researching I was looking in -8an lines, walbro 450, aero fpr 13101 but the 13101 has a -6 return line Thanks
If that's the regulator you're going with and nothing else is available, there are 6 to 8an adapters.
Re: GO-AUTOWORKS Rejuvenation Build Project..modest goals but custom w/ walk throughs
Originally Posted by Txdragon
If that's the regulator you're going with and nothing else is available, there are 6 to 8an adapters.
That's what I was wondering if I just get a -6 to -8 adapter, the only thing I was concerned about, and I might be overthinking, will the -6 to -8 adapter cause back pressure due to it being a smaller orifice causing restriction? Sorry, I work in aviation and I tend to overthink things. Plus I want to be correct the first time I do things
Re: GO-AUTOWORKS Rejuvenation Build Project..modest goals but custom w/ walk throughs
Originally Posted by hondacurious
That's what I was wondering if I just get a -6 to -8 adapter, the only thing I was wondering, and I might be overthinking, will the -6 to -8 adapter cause back pressure due to it being a smaller orifice therefore causing restriction? Sorry, I work in aviation and I tend to overthink things. Plus I want to be correct the first time I do things
I know what you're saying. I would picture it as a bottle neck in reverse. Kinda like pouring fluid through the small end of the funnel. Lol. I wouldn't imagine this to be an issue. Think of how many turbos have 2 or 2.5" outlets leading to 3" piping. Wouldn't that be the same dilemma? Being it's a smaller orifice on an adjustable regulator, I'd imagine any difference can just be ironed out by a turn of the screw.
Re: GO-AUTOWORKS Rejuvenation Build Project..modest goals but custom w/ walk throughs
Originally Posted by K7-1Ktrevor
I agree with autoworks. One thing allot of people overlook when they do the cost to hp ratio is the power out of boost... As everyone knows also b series trannys are stronger, as are the axles. B series offers better gearing...
Stoked to see this build progress.
Originally Posted by hondacurious
With converting to e85 what is the fuel build/layout going to be? I will be ordering a turbo kit from you guys this spring and am in the works this month ordering everything to upgrade the fuel system, LSV sleeved, arias pistons I believe 10.5:1, looking for 500 max on e85. After researching I was looking in -8an lines, walbro 450, aero fpr 13101 but the 13101 has a -6 return line Thanks
I'll do a walk through detailing the fuel layout here specifically.
The 13101 would work fine, a -6 return is perfectly fine (feed and return actually w/ that power goal). You could use the 13101 or the 13129 (which is what I typically use). No need to run a -8 return at that level.
01-02-2019, 04:53 AM
GO-AUTOWORKS Rejuvenation Build Project..modest goals but custom w/ walk throughs
