BIG T

Ok so i was wondering if it would make a lick of sense to run freon threw an air to water intercooler in hopes getting the IAT's even coolers than just running water??

Now i understand that i will have to get a condensor and pump. Which the pump would have to be run by the crank although, i was thinking how about i just run an electric pump. oh then all the hard line stuff.

Also you would never have to change the coolant (freon) like you would water.

COMMENT/CRITIQUE

drumking15

the a/c draw needed for the compressor would just negate all of the gains...and youd need a really good a/c compressor to handle the sudden increase in rpm's of the motor itself

hence why most youll see use dry-ice...or ice'd resiviors

tricura

Using ice water I could get my IAT's down to 40 degrees. When the BOV hit you could see frost come out on the dyno. No need to get them any lower then that.

BIG T

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by drumking15 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">the a/c draw needed for the compressor would just negate all of the gains...and youd need a really good a/c compressor to handle the sudden increase in rpm's of the motor itself

hence why most youll see use dry-ice...or ice'd resiviors</TD></TR></TABLE>

you will notice in my original post that stated that i could use an electric pump/compressor of some sort to do what the original belt driven compressor did. So as to not have parastic draw on the motor.

BIG T

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tricura &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Using ice water I could get my IAT's down to 40 degrees. When the BOV hit you could see frost come out on the dyno. No need to get them any lower then that.</TD></TR></TABLE>

yeah but how long did that last?? I assume that you had to change the water/ice out many times.

tokesGTR

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BIG T &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

you will notice in my original post that stated that i could use an electric pump/compressor of some sort to do what the original belt driven compressor did. So as to not have parastic draw on the motor.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I must have missed that part of physics class that says a big electric motor puts zero additional strain on the motor due to amperage draw.

tony413

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tokesGTR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I must have missed that part of physics class that says a big electric motor puts zero additional strain on the motor due to amperage draw.</TD></TR></TABLE>

please explain im sure the OP meant mechanical parasitic draw not electrical. but either way theres strain on the system.

NJIN BUILDR

An old customer of mine ran a Pantera using the a/c as an intercooler.With no good way to run an air/air setup he used the a/c condenser.He used the condenser to cool the water during cruising and used a tps cutout to shut down the a/c during wfo operation.
Of course he had 400hp in vacuum to run the compresser.

drumking15

this isnt something im just talkin out of my butt about...back about 3yrs ago when i ran a a/w setup i was something i wanted to do...and could not find a suitable way to achieve it...it just becomes easier to have a larger resivior and keep the heat out of the system plain and simple

BIG T

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tokesGTR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I must have missed that part of physics class that says a big electric motor puts zero additional strain on the motor due to amperage draw.</TD></TR></TABLE>

sorry i haven't taken electronics yet in my trials to my mechanical engineering degree. Although i find it highly unlikely that the draw from the alternator is unlike to make that much of difference on the motor in terms on parastic draw and ampers.

Kevin

Im sure this could work but its probably more complicated for negligable gains over an air to air. I know Ford was toying with an AC intercooler for the Lightning, don't know much about how it works but i believe it only cools the air charge for a limited amount of time.

quicksilver1689

yeah compressors cycle on and off

tony413

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BIG T &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

sorry i haven't taken electronics yet in my trials to my mechanical engineering degree. Although i find it highly unlikely that the draw from the alternator is unlike to make that much of difference on the motor in terms on parastic draw and ampers.</TD></TR></TABLE>

dont mind tokes his just the village ******* bashing anyone every chance he gets

BIG T

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by quicksilver1689 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">yeah compressors cycle on and off</TD></TR></TABLE>

yeah never thought about that. that the compressor would essentially have to run all the time.
would be a down fall...

NJIN BUILDR

The compressor drag is only there when the a/c clutch is locked up.Most engine management systems have a tps switch feature to disengage the a/c clutch at a specific throttle position.You only need the cooling effect for a short time.You not going to run in boost for more than a short time.The a/c will cool the water back down between boosted runs.

tony413

why not just get an oil cooler, an inline fuel pump, water reservior, rubber lines, and cool the water that way.

1. place oil cooler in front area of the car
2. place lines from cooler to fuel pump.
3. place lines from the fuel pump to the water reservoir in rear of car.
4. control the pump by on/off switch.

NJIN BUILDR

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tony413 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">why not just get an oil cooler, an inline fuel pump, water reservior, rubber lines, and cool the water that way.

1. place oil cooler in front area of the car
2. place lines from cooler to fuel pump.
3. place lines from the fuel pump to the water reservoir in rear of car.
4. control the pump by on/off switch. </TD></TR></TABLE>

That pretty much describes a normal air/water intercooler.

tony413

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by NJIN BUILDR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

That pretty much describes a normal air/water intercooler.</TD></TR></TABLE>

yes i know but read the OP's first post. im just simplely giving him an answer on what to use as a condenser ( oil cooler ) and pump ( inline fuel pump ). thats all, im not really sure why he thought of using A/C components.

tricura

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BIG T &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

yeah but how long did that last?? I assume that you had to change the water/ice out many times.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I usually change it in between 1/4 mile passes but it would last about an hour on the dyno. I don't think that is that big of a deal to just drain the water and add ice. your set up is only gonna rob power before it produces it.

rorik

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BIG T &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

sorry i haven't taken electronics yet in my trials to my mechanical engineering degree. Although i find it highly unlikely that the draw from the alternator is unlike to make that much of difference on the motor in terms on parastic draw and ampers.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Well, if that's how good you are at engineering, you should find a different field. Your intuition isn't telling you otherwise? You think energy is just free? You think a mechanical pump that takes multiple hp to run can somehow be driven for free without the alternator just taking the energy off the crank instead?
How many watts is 1 hp? If I remember right, something like 740?
How many hp does it take to run the compressor?
Your stock alternator wouldn't even be able to run it.
Also, trying to drive it electrically hardly even helps you. It would minimize the efficiency loss due to the compressor being less efficient at certain speeds (yes, like everything else, it has a most efficient operating range) but it would add a lot of complexity under the hood. Probably more efficient to underdrive the compressor to keep it in its efficiency range when your motor is at high rpm though.
A better answer to this whole dilemma is with thermoelectrics.
I did the calculation for this a long time ago, with the help of someone in the thermoelectric industry, and we figured that to move enough heat for a relatively high power level, it would take a Lot of electricity, continuously, but being the smart *** that I am, I figured a way around that.
I gave my idea/thoughts on this to a guy who runs a company called http://www.killerchiller.com/
I'll hit him up and see how his thing is going.


Modified by rorik at 5:29 PM 2/19/2008

NJIN BUILDR

This is why using the a/c to chill the water when your not in boost is the key.Your just storing the cold water/air and not trying to produce the cold and power at the same time.

CoreyR

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tony413 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

yes i know but read the OP's first post. im just simplely giving him an answer on what to use as a condenser ( oil cooler ) and pump ( inline fuel pump ). thats all, im not really sure why he thought of using A/C components. </TD></TR></TABLE>

you mean a heat exchanger?

an oil cooler isnt going to do much for the amount of water flowing through it. you would need something more similarly sized to a radiator to effectively cool the water.

tony413

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by CoreyR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

you mean a heat exchanger?

an oil cooler isnt going to do much for the amount of water flowing through it. you would need something more similarly sized to a radiator to effectively cool the water.</TD></TR></TABLE>

depends on the size of the item your trying to cool. your not trying to cool the block so the core of the "radiator" doesnt need to be as big.

CoreyR

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tony413 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

depends on the size of the item your trying to cool. your not trying to cool the block so the core of the "radiator" doesnt need to be as big. </TD></TR></TABLE>

the compressed air from the turbo is probably 200* pre intercooler so id say youll need more then an oil cooler to cool the water comming out of a A2W thats cooling those 200* temps.

Legion

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by CoreyR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

the compressed air from the turbo is probably 200* pre intercooler so id say youll need more then an oil cooler to cool the water comming out of a A2W thats cooling those 200* temps.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Heat exchangers are generally very small compared to their air-to-air counterparts.

Basic convective heat transfer: q = hAdT

Where h is the heat transfer coefficient, which is actually based on the material's thermal conductivity, k. Bypassing all the math, it turns out that k for water is about 24x greater than k for air, which is why air-to-water exchangers can be so much smaller than air-to-air exchangers and still convect the same amount of heat.

Which ISN'T to say I'm backing your stupid idea Tony413. As usual, your common sense blabber is about as useful as flies on stink. Although, to be fair, I'm sure your parts cleaning "write-up" *gag* has gone on to receive tens of nothings of views and has helped out tons of nobody. Keep up the good work.