servion

I have been troubleshooting this problem on my personal motor and I just wanted to run it by some builders here to see if I am missing something obvious.

I've got around 250 miles on the bottom end and I'm now realizing the severity of this problem. The head has been off 3 times to troubleshoot a poor valvejob which has now been fixed (FINALLY).

GSR, 9:1 CP pistons, 83MM
Piston to wall clearance: .0045" (CP called for .0035")
Top ring gap: .021" (within CP's ring bap calculation specs)
Bottom ring gap: .026" (also within CP's ring bap calculation specs)
Endyn crankcase ventilation kit, standard install with drain-back routed to passenger-side tube. The can is located to the righthand side of the battery, to tle left of where the stock fuel filter would normally sit.

I am getting bad crankcase pressure, even at low loads. I am only making around 350whp uncorrected right now, and I went to te track last night just to play around on some street-tires. Well, after a single pass there was a significant amount of oil puked out onto the firewall, splattered onto the battery, coating the rear crossmember directly under the can. With the endyn filter saturated in oil, I can rev the engine freely and watch the oil bubble in the catchcan filter. Even at idle when the catchcan filter is coated in oil I can see it bubbling on the filter. Now a single dyno pull is not enough to cause it to puke like this, but a 1/4mile pass is. It appears that on some of the 1/4 passes I could see a slight amount of smoke coming out the tailpipe (but it looked white).

Also, while cruising (since I forgot to put the passenger side firewall grommet back in), there is a fairly significant amount of smoke coming into the car through that firewall hole from the catchcan (enough to force me to keep the windows open when driving for any length of time so as not to get a monsterous headache).

Now, normally I would take a hint and tear it down to freshen up the bottom end. Well, here's the kicker:

Keep in mind that I am at ~6500 feet elevation, so compression test numbers are lower than at sea level.

Compression: 162 160 162 160 (these numbers are right on par with similar healthy 9:1 motors at this altitude)
Leakdown: 4% 3.5% 3% 3% (no coolant bubbling)
The engine pulls excellent vacuum when warm.

The motor only has 250 miles on it. I broke it in on a load-bearing dyno with a spot-on tune. Now, its taking 13-14PSI (absolute) to make 350WHP uncorrected on a t3/t67 stg5 wheel .82 hotside. Perhaps a little low... I should also note that the turbo is spitting some oil out of the compressor inlet, but I've seen much worse.

The only change I made between the dyno and the 1/4 passes was the oil.. I went from a valvoline 10-40 to a valvoline VR1 racing 20-50.

Any ideas? If I were to tear it down, I wouldn't know what else to do differently excapt maybe tighten up the ring gaps a bit (although I'm shooting for the standard 650whp uncorrected)


Modified by servion at 11:21 AM 7/13/2006

Turbo-LS

iTrader: (4)

Well you got all sorts of issues man. that turbo having oil in the compressor housing is beat, you need to replace the seals in that turbo. thats going to kill the octane of the gas and is prolly why your not making as much HP as you should be with that t3/t67. also if its not the HO series then it wont make as much power.

As for your filling up the catch can. i had that same problem running the 20w50 valvoline race oil. alsothough the rings have some wear on them your definatly not broken in yet. my engine isnt broken in either and i get alot of crankcase pressure but havent had any issues with the endyne drainback catchcan yet.

Switch to a conventional oil. i am running castrol gtx 10w30 and it will allow more friction between the rings and cylinder walls to seat the rings better. i know with the 20/50 after taking the head off it looked as if the engine wasnt even run. tons of crosshatch on the sleeves.

Running the lose tolerences is going to cause more blow by then a tighter tolerence engine but you want to run loose if you plan on cranking the boost up and making big HP numbers. tight engines are for lower boost, longevity loose engines are for high boost and high output but they will smoke and have excess blwoby on lower boost levels

Last year on the track i was filling the shitty greedy can after 2 passes on 12 psi. i drained the catch can and after 3 or 4 passes on 22 psi of boost i noticed less and less oil in the catch can. i believe it to be between the rings setting better on the higher boost because my engine is lose and perposly built that way as i plan on running 25-35 psi of boost on the track, and i dont mind a little smoke when i drive on lower boost.

I think if you crank the boost up and tune it nicely it should seat those rings alot better. i also broke my engine in on a dynojet, started it up and made pulls to 22 psi. and again on lower boost is spit alot of oil out and by the time we hit 22 psi there wasnt much oil at all in the catch can

servion

At this point, its worth a shot. If I'm going to have to tear it down I might as well change the oil and turn the boost up first I have been trying to do some research and I am considering trying out a rotella 15-40 oil. I have had it recommended by a couple machinists and there is a little date on it here in the archives... I don't think I want a synthetic oil this point, but I don't think the rotella T 15-40 is necessarily synthetic...

Turbo-LS

iTrader: (4)

i dont know why you want such a heavy oil. its not going to allow your engine to break in. basically you need a conventional oil and a lighter weight so that teh rings seat in and teh cylinder walls wear in.

stock to catrol or valvoline 10w30 regular motor oil. as for synthetic you can run that for at least 3000 miles. if you were to run synthetic right now your problem would only dramatically increase
also your compression numbers seem very low. a 9:1 motor should be around 200 psi. did you do it with the engine warm and did you hold the throttle all the way down when you did the compression test?

servion

As I mentioned before, I am at 6500 feet elevation, which means that the atmospheric pressure here is much lower than sea level. Typical dyno correction factors in my town (significantly hihher than even Denver) are around 30%. With 30% less air, 200psi / 1.3 = 153psi. This leads me to believe that 162 is well within acceptable parameters. Additionally, most cars that I tune with healthy motors and 9:1 CR see very similar compression test results in this city.

I am definitely not going to run a synthetic oil...

boosted k20

try a smaller gap on the rings next time

earl

I would not run anymore than a 10-30 oil as you don't have the bearing clearances to run anything thicker. How is your vacuum reading at idle. It should be about 20, I believe. Maybe you just need more break in time, I hope. I'm really not sure what is causing your problem.

servion

Well, I am running .002" on all the mains and rod bearings. I am pulling -17 at vacuum, but keep in mind I'm at high altitude... -17 is about the best I have seen from a honda around here. I was pulling -15 last year with 2% leak.

JDogg

ring gaps are fine, they wont cause the blow by..

w/the endyne garbage using the ports on the back of the block, it tends to siphon oil and whatnot out of the block into the can, where it smolders and burns, causing all the fumes and making it fill up w/****. close that **** up, get the can attached at the valve cover and it will probably fix the problem

also.. what exh manifold, turbine a/r, dp and exhaust do you have?

tegedrex

He's running FR ramhorn t3 mani, 3" dp and 4" exhaust unsure of he a/r but its the t3/67 with upgrade hotside.

Danny_EJ

Please post any results,

I am currently having the SAME EXACT issue- minus the smoking and turbo compressor issue.


My brand new engine built by a popular vendor here is going through the identical problem and he didnt know what to say.

I am running 10-30 and turned up the boost to 20psi. The shop that tuned the car recommended I run synthetic. If it gets worse I will change it back.
My engine also has CPs and Eagle Rods and I am told its not broken in yet, but why it makes good compression and drives like a normal motor I do notknow. I was also tuned on a dyno jet with a/f in the 11.8-12.0 at WOT.

Please post up any results you find. I have a copy of the endyne, and was considering buying it but this is making me think it will not help. I recently installed a drain back so hopfully that helps.

Again, this does not happen on the Dyno, only when the car is moving, and only IN boost.... If i baby the car for extended drives I notice less oil around the can.

ladysman

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JDogg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">ring gaps are fine, they wont cause the blow by..

w/the endyne garbage using the ports on the back of the block, it tends to siphon oil and whatnot out of the block into the can, where it smolders and burns, causing all the fumes and making it fill up w/****. close that **** up, get the can attached at the valve cover and it will probably fix the problem

</TD></TR></TABLE>

I couldn't have said it better than J did. The back of the block fittings are useless for anything other than a drainback. Get some fittings in the valve cover.

Turbo-LS

iTrader: (4)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ladysman &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I couldn't have said it better than J did. The back of the block fittings are useless for anything other than a drainback. Get some fittings in the valve cover. </TD></TR></TABLE>

I dissagree with the fittings on the back of the block, BUT the valve cover fittings are a good idea, and depending on where you put them some how make sure there baffeled. I have a moroso valve cover on my engine and the breather port wasnt baffeled and it puked a TON of oil as it was being thrown off the cams

earl

What you need to do with the fittings is to add about 1/4" of tubing to the back of them. The inside opening cannot be even with the back of the block (internally) because oil running down the back of the block will be pushed in the opening along with the pressure.

Danny_EJ

earl he is running an endyne kit- they protrude in the block if im not mistaken..

I know the prelude fittings are even..

servion

I am running an old-school full-race ramhorn and 3" DP, t3/t67 .82 ar stg 5, 4" exhaust.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by earl &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What you need to do with the fittings is to add about 1/4" of tubing to the back of them. The inside opening cannot be even with the back of the block (internally) because oil running down the back of the block will be pushed in the opening along with the pressure.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Earl, how should I modify them that way? I don't want to hose clamp some tubing on there somehow and then have the tubing drop into the block... but I'm willing to try anything at this point if it can save me the grief of tearing a new motor out and down.

The thing that is weird is that I have ran this endyn kit for some time now (1-2 seasons before this one). It wasn't a problem with the past build. At the end of the last season it started to puke a little bit, but not nearly as much as it does now. Currently, it only seems to actually puke after a track pull, but while cruising in vacuum it definitely smokes out the breather.

If these endyn fittings were the problem, would it cause the filter (which is soaked in oil) to bubble at idle? I suspect that I should definitely have a little more blowby at idle than last year simply due to the ring gaps, and I have always had a little at idle (I suspect mainly because the gaps are bigger than stock, and also because there is no vacuum drawing the vapors into the intake manifold at idle).

I'm definitely down to put the freeze plugs back in and modify the valve cover instead.... is there any reason why I could not put them on the backside (firewall side) of the valve cover (of course under the existing baffling)? Simply because the full-race ramhorn doesn't leave much room up front. I can try to find some barbed steel fittings that match the size of the endyn ones and use them instead... I'd like to leave the drain back in place, but if the problem is due to those block fittings then I don't think I can leave one simply for drainage....

JDogg

the back of the valve cover will work fine, thats how i usually do it...

also, get a pcv valve, put it in the top of the catch can and then weld a tube at an angle in the downpipe, run a hose from that to the pcv on the top of the catch can, when the exh gasses get flowing it will suck the pressure out... you can also run it to the intake w/o a pcv valve to get the same effect, but that tends to dirty up everything unelss yyou have some really good baffleing in the can and such.

if it really is crank case pressure then you should have some seeping of oil from all the gaskets on the motor, main seals, oil pan, valve cover, etc, etc.

servion

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JDogg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">the back of the valve cover will work fine, thats how i usually do it...

also, get a pcv valve, put it in the top of the catch can and then weld a tube at an angle in the downpipe, run a hose from that to the pcv on the top of the catch can, when the exh gasses get flowing it will suck the pressure out... you can also run it to the intake w/o a pcv valve to get the same effect, but that tends to dirty up everything unelss yyou have some really good baffleing in the can and such.

if it really is crank case pressure then you should have some seeping of oil from all the gaskets on the motor, main seals, oil pan, valve cover, etc, etc.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Actually, for some reason your last post reminded me of something! Last year, I remember one time at the track I decided (for some odd reason) to remove the drain-back feature and let the oil dump underneath the car instead. Well after 1 pass I lost 2 quarts of oil. (To this day my car still leaves little oil puddles from where the undercarriage was coated with oil ) I thought the motor might have been tired, but I ran mid 10's at high 130's/140 many times after that (and that was on a .63 ar). Perhaps this has been a problem all along, and its simply worse now with my new motor...

Let me ask this: will a mere pair of fittings ran to the back of the valve cover (instead of the block fittings) be enough on their own? The endyn can is supposedly baffled, and I would definitely tap the fittings to the back of the valve cover behind the baffling... If this is the case, I can do this this weekend, give her a whirl on the dyno and worry about setting up the exhaust to draw it out after I know this fixes her However, if the problem still exists, I'll fill up the can and have nowhere for it to drain... but as long as I stay on top of it

DaveF

- 16 lines off the frontside of the valvecover, doing to a catch can, that is "laying down" with 2 big filters should solve the problem.


reason you dont want the back of the valvecover is simply because of foward momentum, all the oil will be thrown against the backside of the valvecover. the front is more logical. but i guess it will be hard to tuck in there with a ramhorn.

Boostfed

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by dturbocivic &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">- 16 lines off the frontside of the valvecover, doing to a catch can, that is "laying down" with 2 big filters should solve the problem.


reason you dont want the back of the valvecover is simply because of foward momentum, all the oil will be thrown against the backside of the valvecover. the front is more logical. but i guess it will be hard to tuck in there with a ramhorn. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Exactly, plenty of people have done the two bungs in the front of the valve cover even with Ram horn style manifolds. We had excessive crank case presures with my Endyn set up, it filled up each run on the dyno, BUT the motor also had no crosshatch left when we tore it apart. The machine work was not the greatest on my last motor

I need to do the two bungs on the front of my valve cover now also

On the Endyn catchcan set up , some people use it and it works GREAT then others fill that can up every pass even with the drainback function. Strange. Good luck

DaveF

someting i found on ebay a few minutes ago....although it would be better with 2 fittings that would be run to the valvecover. i dont think it will look right with a -20 attach onto a honda valvecover.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors...wItem

DaveF

When plumbing in a breather can, to breath the engine, you should use at least a - 12 AN hose. The hose should run slightly up hill to the can so that any oil reaching the hose can run back down the hose to the tank. Be sure that the hose does not have any dips where oil can accumalate.

Remember- The air coming from the oil tank to the breather is a result of having multiple scavenge sections which pump a lot of air from the engine. If the breather hose is too small, the velocity of the air will increase over what it would be with a larger hose. This increase in velocity will tend to carry more oil droplets to the breather can. This is why a larer hose is better.


got this bit of information off of http://www.petersonfluidsystems.com website

servion

Well, I think I'm definitely going to try removing the endyn block fittings and tap the valve cover instead.

I guess I also liked the idea of the back of the cover also because of the convenience of leaving the can where it is... perhaps the old full-race manifolds are taller or something like that, but I don't know how well I will be able to fit fittings on the front of the valvecover... I can't seem to locate a "good" engine bay shot, this one is 2 years old lol

servion

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by dturbocivic &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
When plumbing in a breather can, to breath the engine, you should use at least a - 12 AN hose. The hose should run slightly up hill to the can so that any oil reaching the hose can run back down the hose to the tank. Be sure that the hose does not have any dips where oil can accumalate.

Remember- The air coming from the oil tank to the breather is a result of having multiple scavenge sections which pump a lot of air from the engine. If the breather hose is too small, the velocity of the air will increase over what it would be with a larger hose. This increase in velocity will tend to carry more oil droplets to the breather can. This is why a larer hose is better.


got this bit of information off of http://www.petersonfluidsystems.com website </TD></TR></TABLE>

Interesting... that makes sense.... I guess I will have to replace the endyn can with another one to run at least -12 though because the endyn can doesn't look like it will accomodate fittings of that size. When you say it should run uphill, you mean it should run UP from the breather tank to the valve cover, right?

Boostfed

Weird cuz on my old B16A motors 84mm made 676whp with just a breather on the valve cover When I did my LS/VTEC made 714whp it puked oil like crazy BUT again the machine work wasn't done very well