engine build question. GSR w/ LS crank vs LS w/ ls crank.
#1
engine build question. GSR w/ LS crank vs LS w/ ls crank.
So i'm in the process of building another motor... Initially, I was going to use a GSR block, mated with an LS crank... but i'm having some problems finding a GSR block locally to send out to get sleeved and camp1320 has LS core blocks. A friend of mine has an LS crank lying around, and another has a complete LS shortblock for dirt cheap... so sourcing any of the LS pieces isn't going to be much of a problem.
Granted, people run turbo ls/vtecs all the time ... as do people run ls stroked gsr's ... so i'm not really asking which is better, because they're both tried and true.
I'd like to avoid the hassle of ls/vtec (allbeit a small hassle) if i can, but if that's the only disadvantage then i'm not really worried about it.
So in short, my main question is: are there any advantages/disadvantages to running a GSR w/ an LS crank as opposed to running an ls w/ an ls crank
the only thing i can think of off the top of my head is that the LS has no oil squirters, but i've heard theory (if you even want to call it that..) for bothing having and not having them.
thanks in advance.
Granted, people run turbo ls/vtecs all the time ... as do people run ls stroked gsr's ... so i'm not really asking which is better, because they're both tried and true.
I'd like to avoid the hassle of ls/vtec (allbeit a small hassle) if i can, but if that's the only disadvantage then i'm not really worried about it.
So in short, my main question is: are there any advantages/disadvantages to running a GSR w/ an LS crank as opposed to running an ls w/ an ls crank
the only thing i can think of off the top of my head is that the LS has no oil squirters, but i've heard theory (if you even want to call it that..) for bothing having and not having them.
thanks in advance.
#3
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Re: (V-SPEC 1)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by V-SPEC 1 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I would say that the GSR block LS crank is a better setup. It has a main girdle and no oil braided lines to feed the head. </TD></TR></TABLE>
gsr with ls crank makes life easy.
get some Golden Eagle oil squirter block off plugs too
gsr with ls crank makes life easy.
get some Golden Eagle oil squirter block off plugs too
#4
Honda-Tech Member
same ****. as long as its built and tuned right you have nothing to worry about.
but the obvious if you have a gsr block you dont have to do the oil feed. if you have a ls block already than dont waste your money on the gsr.
but the obvious if you have a gsr block you dont have to do the oil feed. if you have a ls block already than dont waste your money on the gsr.
#5
what are the benefits of not having oil squirters?
I did forget about the girdle though.. how important is that? or is just more of a piece of mind kinda thing?
I don't have either block ... it'll just save me some money and time by going with an LS block so that's what's making me lean that way.
I did forget about the girdle though.. how important is that? or is just more of a piece of mind kinda thing?
I don't have either block ... it'll just save me some money and time by going with an LS block so that's what's making me lean that way.
#6
Honda-Tech Member
Im not 100% but i think with no oil squirters you get higher oil pressure. You do not need a girdle. its supposed to reinforce the crank and make it less prone to flex. But as long as you have the roatating assembly balanced you do not need a girdle.
#7
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Re: (92redhatch)
Yea, i've heard it raises oil pressure as well. Lots of people block them off however there are builders like laskey racing for example that do not plug them. You could argue either way with them.
I wouldn't spend much extra money to get a gsr block. LS's are a dime a dozen these days.
I wouldn't spend much extra money to get a gsr block. LS's are a dime a dozen these days.
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Re: (92redhatch)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 92redhatch »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You do not need a girdle. its supposed to reinforce the crank and make it less prone to flex. But as long as you have the roatating assembly balanced you do not need a girdle.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Sorry buddy, try again. The girdle reinforces the block not the crank, helping to reduce cylinder movement at higher rpms.
Sorry buddy, try again. The girdle reinforces the block not the crank, helping to reduce cylinder movement at higher rpms.
#9
Honda-Tech Member
thanks for the info. But i still know you dont need a girdle. especially if you have a sleeved block. i dont see the much cylinder movement. i could be wrong.
#11
Re: engine build question. GSR w/ LS crank vs LS w/ ls crank. (Muckman)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Muckman »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Just make sure you buy LS length rods and LS rod bearings </TD></TR></TABLE>
yep got that covered already.
yep got that covered already.
#12
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wax on, wax off. YEah that sounds like a solid plan miyagi. I wonder how much tq youd actually gain from the 89mm vs 87mm stroke? Like a few ftlbs? or do you think it might reshape the power output?
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Re: engine build question. GSR w/ LS crank vs LS w/ ls crank. (miyagi)
With forged pistons you don't technically need oil cooling their underside, since they conduct heat better than cast. When you run as much power as a Laskey motor usually will, that extra cooling usually won't hurt.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by TwinOptiX »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Sorry buddy, try again. The girdle reinforces the block not the crank, helping to reduce cylinder movement at higher rpms.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Cylinder movement? It doesn't reinforce the crank, but it certainly reinforces the three inner main caps, as thats what it gets bolted to. If Honda was concerned about cylinder movement, they'd have used a closed deck. As it stands, they were concerned about the main caps moving enough to allow a crankshaft spinning 8000 rpm to eat its bearings. Moving cylinders = blown headgasket. Moving main caps = blown shortblock.
IMO the best thing about the LS crank is the wider bearing surfaces. That also means your rod's big ends have more material in them, which will help a little in preventing the big bore from stretching at high rpm.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by TwinOptiX »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Sorry buddy, try again. The girdle reinforces the block not the crank, helping to reduce cylinder movement at higher rpms.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Cylinder movement? It doesn't reinforce the crank, but it certainly reinforces the three inner main caps, as thats what it gets bolted to. If Honda was concerned about cylinder movement, they'd have used a closed deck. As it stands, they were concerned about the main caps moving enough to allow a crankshaft spinning 8000 rpm to eat its bearings. Moving cylinders = blown headgasket. Moving main caps = blown shortblock.
IMO the best thing about the LS crank is the wider bearing surfaces. That also means your rod's big ends have more material in them, which will help a little in preventing the big bore from stretching at high rpm.
#14
Honda-Tech Member
wax on, wax off. YEah that sounds like a solid plan miyagi. I wonder how much tq youd actually gain from the 89mm vs 87mm stroke? Like a few ftlbs? or do you think it might reshape the power output?
im also interested to know the difference in power from going 87.2 to 89mm stroke. anyone?
im also interested to know the difference in power from going 87.2 to 89mm stroke. anyone?
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Re: engine build question. GSR w/ LS crank vs LS w/ ls crank. (HiProfile)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by HiProfile »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Cylinder movement? It doesn't reinforce the crank, but it certainly reinforces the three inner main caps, as thats what it gets bolted to. If Honda was concerned about cylinder movement, they'd have used a closed deck. As it stands, they were concerned about the main caps moving enough to allow a crankshaft spinning 8000 rpm to eat its bearings. Moving cylinders = blown headgasket. Moving main caps = blown shortblock.</TD></TR></TABLE>
In theory, sure. In practice, no.
I've revved an open deck Darton sleeved B18A1 block, no girdle, to 10K. I'm more than happy to take pics of all the bearings, which are pristine, as the engine is on my coffee table at home. Repeatably, without fail, I always experience problems with cams stripping out lobes or damn two piece valves breaking off when revved that high. At no point in time have I had issues with B-series and girdles, or lack thereof, or B-series bottom ends unless they were assembled by monkeys or abused.
I know RLZ was picking up significant power increases by not running a girdle in their bid power builds; the forged factory crank likes to bow up and flexy-flexy a little under power and since they aren't a failure piece why not let it?
Some engines like a girdle, though. The post-'69 Ford 302 block comes to mind. They like to split right down the middle, but a girdle in the bottom end and redrilling the intake manifold bolt holes so that the IM acts like a brace instead of a wedge trying to split the block... oh, yeah. Still cheaper to buy a 351W instead of all that stupid crap, but people are often stupid.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by HiProfile »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">IMO the best thing about the LS crank is the wider bearing surfaces. That also means your rod's big ends have more material in them, which will help a little in preventing the big bore from stretching at high rpm.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Shame they don't make the LS bearing out of the same material as narrowest of the B-series, the GSR. GSR bearings are known to last longer despite less surface area and it's entirely due to the construction.
Also, the big end of Honduh rods don't stretch. Further, despite internet rumor, the stock fasteners are not prone to stretch. Barring assembly by monkeys, or legitimate fastener failure due to a defect on the production line, or oil pump failure, etc, B-series rods break across the beam when they let go.
You've got a fine mind, HiPro, I like the way you think... you're just making the mistake of listening to too much Bandwagon. Keep at it, though, you're defining the questions correctly and determining answers as best you can with the information you have at hand.
In theory, sure. In practice, no.
I've revved an open deck Darton sleeved B18A1 block, no girdle, to 10K. I'm more than happy to take pics of all the bearings, which are pristine, as the engine is on my coffee table at home. Repeatably, without fail, I always experience problems with cams stripping out lobes or damn two piece valves breaking off when revved that high. At no point in time have I had issues with B-series and girdles, or lack thereof, or B-series bottom ends unless they were assembled by monkeys or abused.
I know RLZ was picking up significant power increases by not running a girdle in their bid power builds; the forged factory crank likes to bow up and flexy-flexy a little under power and since they aren't a failure piece why not let it?
Some engines like a girdle, though. The post-'69 Ford 302 block comes to mind. They like to split right down the middle, but a girdle in the bottom end and redrilling the intake manifold bolt holes so that the IM acts like a brace instead of a wedge trying to split the block... oh, yeah. Still cheaper to buy a 351W instead of all that stupid crap, but people are often stupid.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by HiProfile »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">IMO the best thing about the LS crank is the wider bearing surfaces. That also means your rod's big ends have more material in them, which will help a little in preventing the big bore from stretching at high rpm.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Shame they don't make the LS bearing out of the same material as narrowest of the B-series, the GSR. GSR bearings are known to last longer despite less surface area and it's entirely due to the construction.
Also, the big end of Honduh rods don't stretch. Further, despite internet rumor, the stock fasteners are not prone to stretch. Barring assembly by monkeys, or legitimate fastener failure due to a defect on the production line, or oil pump failure, etc, B-series rods break across the beam when they let go.
You've got a fine mind, HiPro, I like the way you think... you're just making the mistake of listening to too much Bandwagon. Keep at it, though, you're defining the questions correctly and determining answers as best you can with the information you have at hand.
#16
well hopefully all this info helps someone down the road
Some money issues came up ... well not really - but it's more of a 'i don't feel like spending anymore money' kinda thing ... so i'm just going to use the GE sleeved b16 i have laying around from my last build. I just need rods, bearings and agasket kit and i'm good to go. Everything else is minty fresh ... so i'm just gonna give this b16 one last go.
Thanks for the info guys
Some money issues came up ... well not really - but it's more of a 'i don't feel like spending anymore money' kinda thing ... so i'm just going to use the GE sleeved b16 i have laying around from my last build. I just need rods, bearings and agasket kit and i'm good to go. Everything else is minty fresh ... so i'm just gonna give this b16 one last go.
Thanks for the info guys
#17
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Re: engine build question. GSR w/ LS crank vs LS w/ ls crank. (Joseph Davis)
Why do you think LS bearings are made out of a different material than GSR/ITR bearings? Ive used many sets of both, and they look identical to me brand new as well as when they all chewed up. I dont think they would waste time developing two different materials.
#19
Re: (miyagi)
OEM honda gsr bearings are made of a tri-metal. Ls bearings are made of a bi-metal hopefully that make sense. You can look it up online for better understanding
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Re: (SlowReaction)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SlowReaction »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">OEM honda gsr bearings are made of a tri-metal. Ls bearings are made of a bi-metal hopefully that make sense. You can look it up online for better understanding</TD></TR></TABLE>
I don't know about that. Nothing wrong with bimetal bearings vs trimetal bearings, either - look at Aleculars.
GSR bearings get a pyramidal lead layer that does a better job holding onto oil than any other bearing. When you see the big V8 engines with rods cut down to Honduh, they are running GSR bearings.
This is basic Honduh tech, guys, I first read about it online back in '97. It's on the Omni/Rocket video. You need to spend some time with real engine builders... I got freaking schooled yesterday on rings and cylinder finish by a guy who made a name for himself building Formula Atlantic engines. I'm not a stupid guy, and I interrupted him for a pen and piece of paper so I could take notes because I wasn't going to miss a lick of it.
I don't know about that. Nothing wrong with bimetal bearings vs trimetal bearings, either - look at Aleculars.
GSR bearings get a pyramidal lead layer that does a better job holding onto oil than any other bearing. When you see the big V8 engines with rods cut down to Honduh, they are running GSR bearings.
This is basic Honduh tech, guys, I first read about it online back in '97. It's on the Omni/Rocket video. You need to spend some time with real engine builders... I got freaking schooled yesterday on rings and cylinder finish by a guy who made a name for himself building Formula Atlantic engines. I'm not a stupid guy, and I interrupted him for a pen and piece of paper so I could take notes because I wasn't going to miss a lick of it.
#21
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Re: (Joseph Davis)
Well if you up the stroke to 89mm and use the LS length rods, then would you need to use a different piston? This would be on the GSR block. Maybe I'm missing something total in the open. TGIF
Just wondering because I'm beginning to get ideas for my next build.
Just wondering because I'm beginning to get ideas for my next build.
#22
Re: (Joseph Davis)
I didnt say there was anything was wrong with a bimetal bearing. The guy before said that he did not think they were differet so i told what the difference was. I'm sorry we dont all know formula atlantic engine builders. Everyone on this forum is a honduhh tech guy. I guess everyone in this forums must know everything right?
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Joseph Davis »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I don't know about that. Nothing wrong with bimetal bearings vs trimetal bearings, either - look at Aleculars.
GSR bearings get a pyramidal lead layer that does a better job holding onto oil than any other bearing. When you see the big V8 engines with rods cut down to Honduh, they are running GSR bearings.
This is basic Honduh tech, guys, I first read about it online back in '97. It's on the Omni/Rocket video. You need to spend some time with real engine builders... I got freaking schooled yesterday on rings and cylinder finish by a guy who made a name for himself building Formula Atlantic engines. I'm not a stupid guy, and I interrupted him for a pen and piece of paper so I could take notes because I wasn't going to miss a lick of it.</TD></TR></TABLE>
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Joseph Davis »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I don't know about that. Nothing wrong with bimetal bearings vs trimetal bearings, either - look at Aleculars.
GSR bearings get a pyramidal lead layer that does a better job holding onto oil than any other bearing. When you see the big V8 engines with rods cut down to Honduh, they are running GSR bearings.
This is basic Honduh tech, guys, I first read about it online back in '97. It's on the Omni/Rocket video. You need to spend some time with real engine builders... I got freaking schooled yesterday on rings and cylinder finish by a guy who made a name for himself building Formula Atlantic engines. I'm not a stupid guy, and I interrupted him for a pen and piece of paper so I could take notes because I wasn't going to miss a lick of it.</TD></TR></TABLE>
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Re: (sp00led)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by sp00led »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Yea, i've heard it raises oil pressure as well. Lots of people block them off however there are builders like laskey racing for example that do not plug them. You could argue either way with them.
I wouldn't spend much extra money to get a gsr block. LS's are a dime a dozen these days.</TD></TR></TABLE>
don't you need to block the squirters if u are using a gsr block and ls crank...or else the crank will hit them...or else u have to modify the squirter so it won't hit...
-drew
I wouldn't spend much extra money to get a gsr block. LS's are a dime a dozen these days.</TD></TR></TABLE>
don't you need to block the squirters if u are using a gsr block and ls crank...or else the crank will hit them...or else u have to modify the squirter so it won't hit...
-drew
#24
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Re: (SlowReaction)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SlowReaction »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I didnt say there was anything was wrong with a bimetal bearing.</TD></TR></TABLE>
No, you made a very vague statement. I felt it was implied - my personal interpretation - so I expounded.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SlowReaction »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'm sorry we dont all know formula atlantic engine builders. Everyone on this forum is a honduhh tech guy. I guess everyone in this forums must know everything right?</TD></TR></TABLE>
I was making a friendly suggestion. You have zero clue what or how I mean anything because you lack any body language or verbal intonation cues to go by... but I assure you I do not insinuate: I state everything bluntly, factually. In no way shape or form was I being a dick. I can, however, be a huge ******* dick, and anyone who's been in this forum longer than two years can attest to that.
I'd really rather we drop it. My sig says what it says for a reason. Work with me.
No, you made a very vague statement. I felt it was implied - my personal interpretation - so I expounded.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SlowReaction »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'm sorry we dont all know formula atlantic engine builders. Everyone on this forum is a honduhh tech guy. I guess everyone in this forums must know everything right?</TD></TR></TABLE>
I was making a friendly suggestion. You have zero clue what or how I mean anything because you lack any body language or verbal intonation cues to go by... but I assure you I do not insinuate: I state everything bluntly, factually. In no way shape or form was I being a dick. I can, however, be a huge ******* dick, and anyone who's been in this forum longer than two years can attest to that.
I'd really rather we drop it. My sig says what it says for a reason. Work with me.
#25
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Re: (Joseph Davis)
Reading this thread has taught me alot. Thanks fellas.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by blaze the chemi »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Well if you up the stroke to 89mm and use the LS length rods, then would you need to use a different piston? This would be on the GSR block. Maybe I'm missing something total in the open. TGIF
Just wondering because I'm beginning to get ideas for my next build.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I was wondering this aswell.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by blaze the chemi »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Well if you up the stroke to 89mm and use the LS length rods, then would you need to use a different piston? This would be on the GSR block. Maybe I'm missing something total in the open. TGIF
Just wondering because I'm beginning to get ideas for my next build.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I was wondering this aswell.