Charlie Moua

iTrader: (3)

I have used the search fucntion and came up with some good info. HOWEVER some of the information in the ARCHIVED are somewhat old/outdated.
Please help me out and make this a sticky if the FI form if the replys i get are good.

I have heard that turbo charged motor(driven hard & soft), with proper tuning and mantiance should last about 30,000 miles.. give or take some.
*why is that?
*what parts are really abused during boost and overtime?(rings, sleeves, valve seats?)


ALL-MOTOR will be safer..(that's what everyone thinks ) but I read that built & tuned (B16a, B18c1 & B18c5) motor reving at 8,500-9,500 rpms is more hard on the motors INTERNALS than a stock motor tuned and boosting @ 5-8psi... air fuel ratio being a little more richer for longativity or motor life.

PLEASE (Earl, Verine, Vaportrail, SgT, ImportReview, Paul_Vang , HYBIRDKOOP, ect ) & everyone else educate me on what you all know.

BigMoose

Charlie I'm not one of the heavy hitters you mentioned, but I'll share my rule of thumb on engine wear. Each engine is born with a predetermined number of horsepower hours in it. You can use them sparingly and have long life, or burn it and turn it to a shorter life. Double the HP and half the life. The relationship is a general one based on a well behaved engine. Degradation comes from increased wear from increased loads and temperatures.

Regards,
BigMoose

IloveNewt

I think there are just too many variables to determine a set period of time an engine will last. A built engine will obviously last a lot longer than a stock block or a plock not made for boost.

Tuning, driving habits, maintanence........too many factors id say.

Some stock turbo volvos/saabs last a real long time FYI.

mos

If you build two 300hp b18c motors, one turbo and one n/a, I'd bet you a hundred dollars the turbo motor would last longer...

Racerage1

so what is the estimated predetermined life of MOST honda motors??

fsp31

Besides tune, boost level, etc., there's the all-encompassing *dumbass quotient*.

Do your friends describe you as "ham fisted". Is your knickname "bull"? Do you break **** regularly? If you answered "yes" to one of the above 3 questions then you probably need to just leave off the car thing altogether. Try can collecting, latch hook, or even macrame if you're feeling froggy...

J.R.

Bwahhaahaaa


[Modified by 96b18c1vic(T), 5:12 AM 3/11/2003]

romeo619romeo

if thts so every honda motor should last atleast 100k miles if you was to double anything ...honda motor is ment to last 200k with minimal rebuilding...that doesnt seem to hurt much but we all kno thats not even close to true.. thats why they have "better" technology out there .. just let alone on oil it self if a car was to be broken in properly and was to be maintained with FULL synthetic oil it should last forever with the common tune ups..and surpass 200k line nothing...its all in what you invest to make the motor have less friction on the moving parts.. plain and simple


[Modified by romeo619romeo, 6:21 AM 3/11/2003]

paulzy

iTrader: (1)

HEAT is a big factor.....so is very high compressions in the combustion chamber. If anybody diagrees, feel free to correct me.

Try doing a compression test on a built NA motor....The numbers are sometimes over the 300 mark

falcongsr

horsepower-hours

thats it.

VaporTrail

Though I like the HP hours explanation a lot, there are a lot of variables in this question. We'll assume though that the car is tuned properly, and built properly. If you drive the car like a drag car, expect it to last like a drag motor. Also, as hp goes up, maintainence goes up in frequency (more frequent oil changes) and complexity (more frequent internal 'freshenings', like rings, bearings and clutches).

Stu

I tried to explain this a while ago, let me see if I can find the post.

Stu

I explained it once, but I can't find the post it was in. It's too early in the morning to try and do it again. But it's in Maximum Boost by Corky Bell in chapter 3 if you are really that interested.

Charlie Moua

iTrader: (3)

well guys thanks for replying. So my question still remanins as is:

*what PARTS are prone to wear down faster in a turbo-charged motor?
(fully tuned, fully built, not boosting more than 10psi, driven respectfully & intelegently, properly maintanace)
--------------
I know that there are many possible and ENDLESS (tuning, gas grades, proper maintanance, driveing habbits, how you DRIVE-shift, normal operating temp ranges, Air fuel ratio, ect) variables to finding out how long a motor will last. I'm not a turbo newbi, but I would like to learn more as we all would about turbo, characteristics, ect.

fsp31

Since I didn't provide anything technical on my first try...

I think the simplest way to break down the issue (technically) is to compare methods of getting power, compression vs. boost. If I recall, this is what Corky Bell does in his book. And I'm probably going to FUBAR his explanation but here goes...

To make the issue much more simple than it really is, the load on rods, bearings, etc. in a high compression engine is *much* greater than on a low CR motor with boost. Essentially, a low CR boosted motor makes power while the piston is in the "middle" of the chamber, resulting in better leverage on the rod/crank. A high CR motor puts tremendous pressure on the rod/crank while the piston is near the "top" of the chamber where leverage isn't so good.

Of course, a lot of this still doesn't relate to your question since the vast majority of boosted Honda's (mine included) are running stock CR's. I'm just useless...

edit: I can provide one piece of relevant info. If you're boosting a D series motor, then the area most prone to wear/breakage will be your ring lands for sure.


[Modified by fsp31, 3:10 PM 3/11/2003]

2K_TEG

I'd agree just because there are very few (if any) 300WHP NA B18Cs.

Drop the number to 225 and it may be a fair comparison.

Pengo

i can kinda agree with the "horsepower hours" theory, but i can't say i'm sure the degradation and wear is exactly proportional to the amt of power being put out. there are way too many real life factors to consider, and even considering the car is taken car of religiously and the driver is perfect, i still don't think the wear would be as linear. good posts tho

Charlie Moua

iTrader: (3)

please give give your example as a lesson of learning for me

GZERO

I agree with you because top make that kind of power NA you will need to rev REALLY high, and i'm not really a fan of high RPM cuz i think that the engine wears a lot more at high RPMs. SO i would agree with you, Boosted engine will last longer.

I also agree to the HP-hour, our engines weren't made for this, and even sleeved they have trouble keeping up with stock like wear

EDIT: i also think that turbo engines make a lot more heat than NA which is a disadvantage for them


[Modified by GZERO, 3:51 PM 3/11/2003]

mos

From what I have read this is right. The combustion pressure in a turbo motor pushes down on the piston more evenly and for a longer period of time. A normally asperated motor will have a huge pressure spike at the begining of the power stroke and hardly any pressure towards the end.

And yes there are not many 300hp n/a b18c motors around, but I was just trying to make a point there. The purpose of adding a turbo is to make more power, so comparing a 300hp turbo engine to a 200hp n/a engine is not really fair. Everything else being equal (which as always, is not) a turbo motor will have a much easier life than a n/a motor of the same power level. The extremely high lift cams, super stiff valve springs, very high compression, possible need for extended rpm range, combustion pressure spiking... all of that crap gets left behind with a turbo.

Lord Quaalard

Horsepower hours is how my industry does things. We use natural gas compressors that produce 10,000+hp. They are designed to run for a cretain # of hp/hours. Usually they go 24/7/365 for 25 years.

Or there is the black smoke theory...
Every engine contains a pre-determined amount of magic black smoke. when you see this smoke exiting the engine, it is toast. This is because you can't get the smoke back in.

dasher

As far as comparing the reliability of the 2 systems is concerned ....

Their are many differences between the 2 ....

In a High power NA application you have to generally rev your engine higher to create more power....
Items such as Titanium retainers will allow you to rev 300 rpm higher and resist heat better but tend to wear down much quicker... It is recommended to check them every 10,000 miles because they often wear down after 30,000 miles .
lightening the crank, flywheel, crank pulley tend to imbalance the engine and cause more problems with harmonics ... even if you re-balance all three there still is a inherent dampening factor which weight exhibits in the system ... just because Hondas are well balanced and have close tolerances doesn't mean they cant be ruined by us changing them... ask anyone who owns a 2nd gen dsm about crankwalk and you'll think twice about replacing your crank pulley.
Reving the hell out of your engine puts a tremendous amount of stress on your springs, valves, and most other components ... its better to make more torque at a lower rpm then at a higher rpm when reliability is your concern... whats that old initialism? R(uins)P(eoples)M(oters).

lets talk about turbos now...
Turbos add more complexity in your engine bay and you will have more components to worry about ... your reliability is compromised by the increased complexity of the system.

You have to worry about your boost spiking due to an inefficient wastegate(delta) or improper placement of the wastegate.

You have to worry about your oil backing up on the turbo oil return line.. and blowing the seals on your new turbo...

You have to constantly check your EGT's, and all your other guages to insure you don't run lean and blow your engine.

Turbos themselves don't last forever and you have to periodically rebuild them or buy a new one if the seals go, or theirs to much shaft play...ect ect ect ....

reliability differs in both systems on which components you have to be concerned with.

2000GSRT

Corky Bell says in his book that if you drive vigorously, but with some respect for the motor you can expect about 90% of normal engine life.