e85 + 1000cc + 255lph = duty cycle ?
04-20-2008, 12:29 PM
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e85 + 1000cc + 255lph = duty cycle ?
i think this is rather commen setup so i wanna see what other ppl are getting as far as duty cycle goes.
im running pte 1000cc injectors, xenocron 255lph pump[should have gone with a real walbro
], stock fuel press, stock wiring. im seeing 68-70%[8200k@11.8afr] duty cycle at only 12psi on a stock b16 with the holset he351cw. 
im running pte 1000cc injectors, xenocron 255lph pump[should have gone with a real walbro
], stock fuel press, stock wiring. im seeing 68-70%[8200k@11.8afr] duty cycle at only 12psi on a stock b16 with the holset he351cw.
04-20-2008, 04:42 PM
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I have been told by a couple people that the duty cycle shown on alot of the Honda based EMS's are somewhat inaccurate, people running out of fuel at 90% and people not running out of fuel at 110%
I ran out of fuel at 585whp with 2 255hp's and RC 1000's on E85
I ran out of fuel at 585whp with 2 255hp's and RC 1000's on E85
04-20-2008, 07:20 PM
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Re: (96 GSR-T)
Duty cycle is always calculated a little different. Technically speaking, 100% is when the injector is open through the entire exhaust stroke and intake stroke. So its spraying onto a closed valve (and puddling!) for most of the time... 
I think it has to do with the injector deadtime, and from what I've read, Calvin hasn't set that up as well as he wants yet in eCtune. The ems's with >100% duty cycle are probably taking the max time it can squirt minus the suspected dead time, then dividing the time it's squirting by the difference. So if an injector has a shorter dead time, it can really squirt for a longer time than the ems allows for in it's forumla. In short: 40ms - 6ms = 34ms allowable; realisticly its 40ms - 3ms = 37ms, so maxed out it would show ~109%
For a quick and dirty rating of injectors, I generally take the CC x 0.7 to get max whp for gasoline, and CC x .49 for E85. Use CC x .4 for 'safe' injector duty cycles & E85. The thing most turbo Honda people have to remember is that with E85, a 30% larger injector will tune just like the smaller injector does on gasoline. Most tuners can idle 1000cc's on a B16 perfect, so with E85 you can idle 1200cc's just as easily, but make nearly as much power (due to octane increase and leaner afr's).
<U>To answer you main question</U>, I'd suggest bumping the pressure up a little, and definately wiring the pump directly to the battery with heavy wire, a relay, and fuse. You simply use the stock wiring to trigger the relay.
I think it has to do with the injector deadtime, and from what I've read, Calvin hasn't set that up as well as he wants yet in eCtune. The ems's with >100% duty cycle are probably taking the max time it can squirt minus the suspected dead time, then dividing the time it's squirting by the difference. So if an injector has a shorter dead time, it can really squirt for a longer time than the ems allows for in it's forumla. In short: 40ms - 6ms = 34ms allowable; realisticly its 40ms - 3ms = 37ms, so maxed out it would show ~109%
For a quick and dirty rating of injectors, I generally take the CC x 0.7 to get max whp for gasoline, and CC x .49 for E85. Use CC x .4 for 'safe' injector duty cycles & E85. The thing most turbo Honda people have to remember is that with E85, a 30% larger injector will tune just like the smaller injector does on gasoline. Most tuners can idle 1000cc's on a B16 perfect, so with E85 you can idle 1200cc's just as easily, but make nearly as much power (due to octane increase and leaner afr's).
<U>To answer you main question</U>, I'd suggest bumping the pressure up a little, and definately wiring the pump directly to the battery with heavy wire, a relay, and fuse. You simply use the stock wiring to trigger the relay.
04-20-2008, 07:30 PM
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Re: (HiProfile)
Yes definatly re-wire your pumps with relays and 10 Ga. wire to get the most out of them, thats what I did and the pumps are much louder than they use to be, I also set my fuel pressure at 50 base.
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04-21-2008, 06:22 AM
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Re: (D16Z6TURBO)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by D16Z6TURBO »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Thats why E85 sucks it just takes more fuel to make the same power. But that brings up a whole different political issue so Ill leave it alone LOL</TD></TR></TABLE>
That is a stupid opinion but w/e, the way I see it is...... I spent damn near if not more that 10k on my engine setup, why the hell would I settle for a sketchy 450whp on **** pump gas origionaly sourced from some overseas country when I can run a safe 600whp on a fuel that is cheaper, burns cleaner and is made in the USA. I flat out get more HP for my Dollar with E85 than any of you will get with 93 octane **** gas. What are we all here for?, to make horsepower, and E85 allows me to make more with what I got.
That is a stupid opinion but w/e, the way I see it is...... I spent damn near if not more that 10k on my engine setup, why the hell would I settle for a sketchy 450whp on **** pump gas origionaly sourced from some overseas country when I can run a safe 600whp on a fuel that is cheaper, burns cleaner and is made in the USA. I flat out get more HP for my Dollar with E85 than any of you will get with 93 octane **** gas. What are we all here for?, to make horsepower, and E85 allows me to make more with what I got.
04-21-2008, 07:13 AM
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A "Stupid Opinion" LOL
Considering your lack of intelligence I wont let that bother me One of my complaints with americans these days your too stupid to research and find out that E85 is screwing you and costing more all the way around it is not saving you a penny and your having to use more of it to make the same power.
Yes I could take the time to break this down into long run costs/wholesale markets blah blah but obviously you have formed an opinion of your own congrats Im sorry your misinformed but thats OK
Ya cant fix stupid right?!
Considering your lack of intelligence I wont let that bother me One of my complaints with americans these days your too stupid to research and find out that E85 is screwing you and costing more all the way around it is not saving you a penny and your having to use more of it to make the same power.
Yes I could take the time to break this down into long run costs/wholesale markets blah blah but obviously you have formed an opinion of your own congrats Im sorry your misinformed but thats OK
Ya cant fix stupid right?!
04-21-2008, 07:24 AM
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Re: (D16Z6TURBO)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by D16Z6TURBO »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">A "Stupid Opinion" LOL
Considering your lack of intelligence I wont let that bother me One of my complaints with americans these days your too stupid to research and find out that E85 is screwing you and costing more all the way around it is not saving you a penny and your having to use more of it to make the same power.
Yes I could take the time to break this down into long run costs/wholesale markets blah blah but obviously you have formed an opinion of your own congrats Im sorry your misinformed but thats OK
Ya cant fix stupid right?!</TD></TR></TABLE>
Please explain why E85 is screwing me, I have my popcorn ready. I could give 2 ***** personally about the Market/Government end of it, so spare me that portion of your highly educated reply to this matter, if you prefer, pm me with it.
Considering your lack of intelligence I wont let that bother me One of my complaints with americans these days your too stupid to research and find out that E85 is screwing you and costing more all the way around it is not saving you a penny and your having to use more of it to make the same power.
Yes I could take the time to break this down into long run costs/wholesale markets blah blah but obviously you have formed an opinion of your own congrats Im sorry your misinformed but thats OK
Ya cant fix stupid right?!</TD></TR></TABLE>
Please explain why E85 is screwing me, I have my popcorn ready. I could give 2 ***** personally about the Market/Government end of it, so spare me that portion of your highly educated reply to this matter, if you prefer, pm me with it.
04-21-2008, 08:39 AM
#12
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Re: (96 GSR-T)
back on topic fellas.
i do have an issue with the e10 price, i havent gotten into the e85 thing yet.
but ben has a point. most of the ragged edge unleaded setups will benefit from e85 and be safer.
i can see the arguement taking more to make the same power, but what the hell? i have considered goin all alky or methanol just because of the price of race fuel, i havent priced it in a while, but in 96 when i was racing the turbo t it was 7.80 a gal. and i was bitching then. he hee. almost 14.00 a gal now?
ok with that said, please back on the topic.
keep arguements not pertinent to the thread content in pm's.
i do have an issue with the e10 price, i havent gotten into the e85 thing yet.
but ben has a point. most of the ragged edge unleaded setups will benefit from e85 and be safer.
i can see the arguement taking more to make the same power, but what the hell? i have considered goin all alky or methanol just because of the price of race fuel, i havent priced it in a while, but in 96 when i was racing the turbo t it was 7.80 a gal. and i was bitching then. he hee. almost 14.00 a gal now?
ok with that said, please back on the topic.
keep arguements not pertinent to the thread content in pm's.
04-21-2008, 08:42 AM
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Re: (96 GSR-T)
Apparently were both opinionated ****** 
The joy of a free country right
I just hate E85
in general so check into why groceries have shot up in cost, small bakeries are closing, etc..
Then consider upgrading fuel system costs (not really an issue if your beefing up anyway) Time to see R.O.I on that. And I have to spray even more to make the same power. Id hate to see what your BSFC actually is LOL
I dont see where this costing any less anywhere to be honest. Gas just keeps going up everywhere I look and then we load it up with some more ethanol so Ill use more/faster and have to fill up more frequently. I see a pattern here LOL
Of course there is still the fact that our dollar is in the crapper and we buy OIL from other countries so that factors in also.
A few simple points that clears it right up for me but we dont all see things the same and Im an A^%&*le and I know it LOL
Seperately My vote on Duty cycle is that is intentional by the manufacturers of the software because ppl in general push things way too far so for safety sake if the software tells you your at 80% IDC when your really at 60% the end user pushes it to 100% IDC like most idiots out there ,this discussion wouldnt even happen if ppl didnt lol, then your still safe and not going to be suing them because you didnt do the math like you were supposed to and believed somone elses calcs like a rookie
Too many novice tuners just believe the screen and never take the time to verify what the comp tells them is whats really going on.
The joy of a free country right
I just hate E85
in general so check into why groceries have shot up in cost, small bakeries are closing, etc..
Then consider upgrading fuel system costs (not really an issue if your beefing up anyway) Time to see R.O.I on that. And I have to spray even more to make the same power. Id hate to see what your BSFC actually is LOL
I dont see where this costing any less anywhere to be honest. Gas just keeps going up everywhere I look and then we load it up with some more ethanol so Ill use more/faster and have to fill up more frequently. I see a pattern here LOL
Of course there is still the fact that our dollar is in the crapper and we buy OIL from other countries so that factors in also.
A few simple points that clears it right up for me but we dont all see things the same and Im an A^%&*le and I know it LOL
Seperately My vote on Duty cycle is that is intentional by the manufacturers of the software because ppl in general push things way too far so for safety sake if the software tells you your at 80% IDC when your really at 60% the end user pushes it to 100% IDC like most idiots out there ,this discussion wouldnt even happen if ppl didnt lol, then your still safe and not going to be suing them because you didnt do the math like you were supposed to and believed somone elses calcs like a rookie
Too many novice tuners just believe the screen and never take the time to verify what the comp tells them is whats really going on.
04-21-2008, 08:54 AM
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Re: (boostedcivicsir)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by boostedcivicsir »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> but in 96 when i was racing the turbo t it was 7.80 a gal. and i was bitching then. he hee. almost 14.00 a gal now?
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Just picked up a sheet earlier from VP..... C16/Q16 is $71.10 for 5 gallons and Meth is $31.25/5gal or M5 is $37.65/5gal
sorry for the rant...im done
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Just picked up a sheet earlier from VP..... C16/Q16 is $71.10 for 5 gallons and Meth is $31.25/5gal or M5 is $37.65/5gal
sorry for the rant...im done
04-21-2008, 10:25 AM
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anyone else ??
to the ***** w/o any relevant info; i didn’t get e85 to get better fuel economy, or to help the environment or even because its made in the USA, i just got it for its cheap 105 octane rating.
to the ***** w/o any relevant info; i didn’t get e85 to get better fuel economy, or to help the environment or even because its made in the USA, i just got it for its cheap 105 octane rating.
04-21-2008, 10:29 AM
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Re: (zex_cool)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by zex_cool »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">anyone else ??
to the ***** w/o any relevant info; i didn’t get e85 to get better fuel economy, or to help the environment or even because its made in the USA, i just got it for its cheap 105 octane rating.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
To answer your origional question, dont expect to make any more power than 500whp with your single pump, 1000's and a 255. If you do then good, but dont be mad/feel mislead that you didnt. Also dont go by Duty, its not very accurate.
to the ***** w/o any relevant info; i didn’t get e85 to get better fuel economy, or to help the environment or even because its made in the USA, i just got it for its cheap 105 octane rating.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
To answer your origional question, dont expect to make any more power than 500whp with your single pump, 1000's and a 255. If you do then good, but dont be mad/feel mislead that you didnt. Also dont go by Duty, its not very accurate.
04-21-2008, 10:33 AM
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Re: (D16Z6TURBO)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by D16Z6TURBO »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Seperately My vote on Duty cycle is that is intentional by the manufacturers of the software because ppl in general push things way too far so for safety sake if the software tells you your at 80% IDC when your really at 60% the end user pushes it to 100% IDC like most idiots out there
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I agree, whatever Duty is shown on our screens is just a software makers guesstimation, I could be wrong though, hopefully someone like HRTuning or someone of that stature can chime in.
Seperately My vote on Duty cycle is that is intentional by the manufacturers of the software because ppl in general push things way too far so for safety sake if the software tells you your at 80% IDC when your really at 60% the end user pushes it to 100% IDC like most idiots out there
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I agree, whatever Duty is shown on our screens is just a software makers guesstimation, I could be wrong though, hopefully someone like HRTuning or someone of that stature can chime in.
04-21-2008, 10:53 AM
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Re: (96 GSR-T)
whats up with the xenocron pump? I cant remember if I got his cheaper one or the real walbro...
I decided i didnt want to worry about maxing it out though, so I ordered the full-blown dual walbro setup!
definately get that thing wired direct to the battery though!
I decided i didnt want to worry about maxing it out though, so I ordered the full-blown dual walbro setup!
definately get that thing wired direct to the battery though!
04-21-2008, 11:06 AM
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Re: (zex_cool)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by zex_cool »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">anyone else ??
to the ***** w/o any relevant info; i didn’t get e85 to get better fuel economy, or to help the environment or even because its made in the USA, i just got it for its cheap 105 octane rating.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Now that I can Respect !
to the ***** w/o any relevant info; i didn’t get e85 to get better fuel economy, or to help the environment or even because its made in the USA, i just got it for its cheap 105 octane rating.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Now that I can Respect !
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