RC000E

This customers car has been running a T25 for some time now, and he wants to go bigger. The plan was the typical 57 trim .63 AR setup, but I'm thinking of trying out the .48 to hope to maintain some spool on the street, because that's what he's used to. This isn't an all out drag car, so the small sacrifice in going with the smaller hot side doesn't seem significant.

Anyone have any experience with this turbo versus the .63? Share some thoughts.

CRXdan

im running a 60 trim .48ar on a vitara and absolutley love it, and woudl imagine id love the 57 trim even more, being its more suited for a stock revving d series. I get full boost (12 psi for now) by 5000rpm with a 2.25" Exhaust. Im sure with a 3" exhaust it woudl be much quicker. As far as street drivability goes its awesome, not a quick spooling turbo by any means, or at least compared to what ive had. But it still spools quick and the power is there when needed. Alot of people advise to use a .63AR housing when using the 50 trim to give it more topend kick, but I think with a 57 trim a .48ar will be absolutley fine. A housing is failry easy to change too. But I definetley think a .48AR housing on a sohc street engine is the way to go


Modified by CRXdan at 3:38 AM 7/17/2008

blackeg

i had it on a stock ls motor. full boost of 10 psi at like 3200 in 3rd gear and up. spool was increased by like 500-800 rpms compared to when i had it as a .63 ar. for the record the car felt 100x faster with the .48 i had so much area under the curve

SovXietday

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RC000E &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">This customers car has been running a T25 for some time now, and he wants to go bigger. The plan was the typical 57 trim .63 AR setup, but I'm thinking of trying out the .48 to hope to maintain some spool on the street, because that's what he's used to. This isn't an all out drag car, so the small sacrifice in going with the smaller hot side doesn't seem significant.

Anyone have any experience with this turbo versus the .63? Share some thoughts.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Before I start, all things considered I don't think it matters whether you go with .48 or .63 anything is an upgrade for your customer.

Anywho, .48 starts to choke around 300-350 along with the power dropping off pretty good up top. Spool will be a bit faster, on average it's about 500 or so rpms faster.

IMO, if your customer has goals set power wise, I'd look into them and see what he wants. If he wants over 300 on pump gas I'd say go with a .63, if he just wants a fast car put the .48 in there. Plus, he can always upgrade to a .63 or downgrade to a .48 if he doesn't like his first choice. All I know is, my .63 57trim hits like a train wreck and I love it.

RC000E

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SovXietday &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Before I start, all things considered I don't think it matters whether you go with .48 or .63 anything is an upgrade for your customer.

Anywho, .48 starts to choke around 300-350 along with the power dropping off pretty good up top. Spool will be a bit faster, on average it's about 500 or so rpms faster.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

That was my concern about the small a/r.

Like typical young Honda guys, they all have these numbers and psi figures in mind as goals. 400 always sounds good, so that's about the common one. I'll go with the .63 as usual and he can go smaller if it's an issue.

quicksilver1689

yeah depenends on how much money he is willing to invest ina turbo. I keep looking at the GT2871R
with a .83 a/r housing. It looks like a very good turbo on paper. Theoretically i guess it can support 400whp~ but it would some up a little short. bullseye has some nice turbos aswell.

All in all the 50 trim .63 is a great turbo as you know. very wide operating range of efficiency.

RC000E

Yeah, GT28RS was the turbo on the table at first, but I question if a GT28RS on a Vitara build can see 400whp. The other issue is, I don't think the guys budget is going to swing the extra cost of a GT28 versus a new 57trim. That difference can cover his gate, or his injectors.

It seems the .63 57trim is remaining the hot item for the vitara builds that seek to hit 400whp. Despite my opinion of this guys motives for his hp goal, I'm not going to build something that doesn't have the capability to make it happen.

nowtype

Post complete setup and I'll tell you which is best. I should also note, there is no way I would ever suggest the garbage 57 trim turbo when you can buy a 50 trim for $10 less and make better power everywhere.

CRXdan

I woudl really have him try out the .48ar housing first. if this is a "typical" young honda guy, I really dont know what he plans on doing with 400+hp on the street. Not that its any of your concern I know, but I still think you shoudl run by the fact that a .48 AR housing will make the car much funner to drive to work, and still be a handful.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nowtype &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Post complete setup and I'll tell you which is best. I should also note, there is no way I would ever suggest the garbage 57 trim turbo when you can buy a 50 trim for $10 less and make better power everywhere.</TD></TR></TABLE>

the hell is that supposed to mean? the 57 trim will make better numbers easier. and spool between a 50 and 57 trim with the same .ar is negligible.


oh yah.. your sig sucks. go back to flipping burgers


Modified by CRXdan at 9:09 PM 7/17/2008

nowtype

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by CRXdan &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
the hell is that supposed to mean? the 57 trim will make better numbers easier. and spool between a 50 and 57 trim with the same .ar is negligible.

oh yah.. your sig sucks. go back to flipping burgers
Modified by CRXdan at 9:09 PM 7/17/2008</TD></TR></TABLE>

Prove it. Go look at a compressor map and tell me the 50 trim doesn't flow more air, more efficiently 99% of the time.

PS: Funner isn't a word you half wit retard.

Drew Peacock

50 trim is definitely a better suited turbo, they do make similar numbers to the 57 and spool significantly earlier. Gt28rs isn't going to make 400whp on a dseries motor without a ton of timing. I would go the .48 50 trim and forget 400whp look for more like 300whp and still have a fun street car.

welfarepc

CRXdan isnt an idiot.

i would listen when he speaks.

getting the block back on monday dan. got the crank polished, jetted, etc. haha BJ is gonna drop it off at work for me and send me a receipt to sign with the driver. haha great shop

SovXietday

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nowtype &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Post complete setup and I'll tell you which is best. I should also note, there is no way I would ever suggest the garbage 57 trim turbo when you can buy a 50 trim for $10 less and make better power everywhere.</TD></TR></TABLE>

That's an aweful steep thing to say considering the 57trim is the turbo that right now holds the Vitara horsepower/track record and has proven time and time again that the compressor map and the performance don't exactly correlate.

That, and I haven't seen a 50trim go over 400 on a Vitara block yet. Customer wants to see the 400 number, the 57trim .63 is the turbo that should be put on the car.

/thread

nowtype

He is wrong and used the word funner. I'm going with a complete half wit.





Cheap way to tell which will make more power, look at the max lb/min on the chart. Whichever pushes more air will allow you to make more power.

Cheap way to tell which will make more power/psi, draw a line across the chart and take note of various points. Compare them to other chart. See which has a higher compressor efficiency. Whichever has a higher compressor efficiency overall = more power/psi.

Cheap way to tell which turbo will spool faster. Look at the low flow sections of the chart. Whichever chart starts at a lower flow rate will spool sooner.

These are cheap rules which aren't 100% true. In the case of comparing standard t3/t04es they are mostly correct because they all use the same turbine wheel and same housings. These rules can become more erroneous as more and more variables are introduced.

SovXietday

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nowtype &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
These are cheap rules which aren't 100% true. In the case of comparing standard t3/t04es they are mostly correct because they all use the same turbine wheel and same housings. These rules can become more erroneous as more and more variables are introduced. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Show me a 50trim that has made 400whp on a Vitara block.

nowtype

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SovXietday &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Show me a 50trim that has made 400whp on a Vitara block.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Show me a GT40r making 400whp on a Vitara block. Your request is pointless. Just because it hasn't been done, doesn't mean it can or can't be done. 50 trim is essentially the same turbo as the 57 trim yet flows more air and is more efficient almost everywhere. Damn thing can almost flow 50lb/min vs the 57 trim barely flowing 45lb/min. Why would the 50 trim not be able to make 400whp but a 57 trim can?

CRXdan

u fool. ill rock my 60 trim all day, see u at the track, and even race u for pinks.


try plotting the points on a 60 trim and tell me how itll do. i dont care what the compressor map says. it may be more efficient but that doesnt mean it wont make power.

do u even have a car?

your mentality sucks. bigger turbo.. less power to you

nowtype

I'm pretty sure I could type 3 pages telling you why and how things work, and you still wouldn't get it so I'll leave it at this.

You are an idiot.

http://fc3spro.com/TECH/TURBO/tmodels.html
http://www.not2fast.com
http://www.youreanidiot.com

SovXietday

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nowtype &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Show me a GT40r making 400whp on a Vitara block. Your request is pointless. Just because it hasn't been done, doesn't mean it can or can't be done. 50 trim is essentially the same turbo as the 57 trim yet flows more air and is more efficient almost everywhere. Damn thing can almost flow 50lb/min vs the 57 trim barely flowing 45lb/min. Why would the 50 trim not be able to make 400whp but a 57 trim can?</TD></TR></TABLE>

I don't know, why wouldn't one? There are lots of people running 50trims on their Vitara builds, yet none of them have gone over 400 yet. The 50trims also consistently make less power than the 57trim at similar psi on these engines. Why is that?

I've already said it earlier in this thread, but the 57trims performance does not correlate with it's compressor map. This has been argued time and time again, yet the 57trim still tends to make more power than the 50trim with minimal changes in spool up time.

Post compressor maps all you want, the real world data doesn't back you up.

tofast4uh22

not to be a *** to you ^^^^ but i wouldnt be talking like that when in your signature you have a vitara build on a 57 trim on 18psi only putting down 325??? you have another 23% you have to increase that turbo's efficiency which i dont think will happen for your build.

but what i think the problem is with the 50 trim and the 57 is that the guys that want good power out of there build automaticly go for the 57 thinking it makes more power. and the guys that go with the 50 trim just want a faster street car and dont want to push it. thats why i think you dont see higher number 50 trims.

nowtype

Post up the data. Prove me wrong.

SovXietday

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tofast4uh22 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">not to be a *** to you ^^^^ but i wouldnt be talking like that when in your signature you have a vitara build on a 57 trim on 18psi only putting down 325??? you have another 23% you have to increase that turbo's efficiency which i dont think will happen for your build. </TD></TR></TABLE>

1) It's just pump gas.
2) It's rich and a little conservative
3) 2bar and race gas will definitely do over 400whp.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nowtype &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Post up the data. Prove me wrong.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Well in this case posting the data is hard... because there IS no data to post. No one has put down over 400whp with a 50trim still. However, members Kelly., fast2camciv, mike, and JFK78 along with a few others have done over 400whp with the 57. I don't know what else you want me to post, and yes there are quite a few 50trim Vitara builds out there.

Minor Threat

Robin makes a touch over 400 on a 50 trim with the Little Bastard, the 57 trim gave him too much surge.

narfdanarf

Where did you get the 57 trim map...that looks a lot different from all the other ones I've seen.

welfarepc

prolly drew it on a napkin from starbucks where he gets his free internet....

lol jk... i thought it was funny enough to say tho. rofl