Designing a new Intake Manifold
07-08-2008, 09:34 AM
#1
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Designing a new Intake Manifold
Hey guys i'm designing a new intake manifold from scratch. I have a ton of manufacturing possibilities at my disposal so i don't have to do your typical sheetmetal+welding manifold.
Basically i'm posting cause i have a couple of questions. I need to find some sources online with technical papers and published documents that have all the info i need on what shape to make the manifold, intake runner length, intake runner area, plenum volume, plenum shape, and overall manifold design. Also if i could find osme good technical info on intake/exhaust cam profiles, exhaust header design, and anything like that, it would be great.
Running a turbo is an option, but also due to the sanction i'm going to be racing in, i have to run through a restrictor so i'm not positive i'm going to do it yet.
I used to have a website favorite that had a **** ton of technical documents about everything on cars, but i lost it all
Basically i'm posting cause i have a couple of questions. I need to find some sources online with technical papers and published documents that have all the info i need on what shape to make the manifold, intake runner length, intake runner area, plenum volume, plenum shape, and overall manifold design. Also if i could find osme good technical info on intake/exhaust cam profiles, exhaust header design, and anything like that, it would be great.
Running a turbo is an option, but also due to the sanction i'm going to be racing in, i have to run through a restrictor so i'm not positive i'm going to do it yet.
I used to have a website favorite that had a **** ton of technical documents about everything on cars, but i lost it all
07-08-2008, 09:53 AM
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Re: Designing a new Intake Manifold (hispanic panic)
Intake tuning is a form of forced induction; using the wave timing to force more than ambient air into the cylinder during the intake stroke. Tuning intake manifolds with a turbo is mostly one directional. Bigger plenum, with short wide runners. Ape racing has good write-ups and shortcut methods. I know that team integra has one on the site for a b18. As far as restrictor tuning, I would design a modulated manifold, so that you can test the effects of longer/shorter runners and the effects from the restrictor.
07-08-2008, 10:07 AM
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Re: Designing a new Intake Manifold (hispanic panic)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by hispanic panic »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Basically i'm posting cause i have a couple of questions. I need to find some sources online with technical papers and published documents that have all the info i need on what shape to make the manifold, intake runner length, intake runner area, plenum volume, plenum shape, and overall manifold design. Also if i could find osme good technical info on intake/exhaust cam profiles, exhaust header design, and anything like that, it would be great.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
If you're looking for that information so that you can manufacture an intake manifold, you have no business manufacturing an intake manifold.
It takes engineering knowledge and testing in order to find a good design. You can't just take measurements and fab one up and expect it to be good.
Basically i'm posting cause i have a couple of questions. I need to find some sources online with technical papers and published documents that have all the info i need on what shape to make the manifold, intake runner length, intake runner area, plenum volume, plenum shape, and overall manifold design. Also if i could find osme good technical info on intake/exhaust cam profiles, exhaust header design, and anything like that, it would be great.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
If you're looking for that information so that you can manufacture an intake manifold, you have no business manufacturing an intake manifold.
It takes engineering knowledge and testing in order to find a good design. You can't just take measurements and fab one up and expect it to be good.
07-08-2008, 01:30 PM
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Re: Designing a new Intake Manifold (hispanic panic)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by hispanic panic »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> I need to find some sources online... that have all the info i need on what shape to make the manifold, intake runner length, intake runner area, plenum volume, plenum shape, and overall manifold design.</TD></TR></TABLE>
You are not really "designing" a new intake manifold when you want all this information given to you. Like chimmike said, you need to do testing with all the variables and figure out what will work.
You are not really "designing" a new intake manifold when you want all this information given to you. Like chimmike said, you need to do testing with all the variables and figure out what will work.
07-10-2008, 06:59 AM
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Re: Designing a new Intake Manifold (chimmike)
Ya you see i am an engineer, and inorder to tackle this project i need all the neccesary equations to tackle this project correctly.
After online research i found the set of Helmholtz equations to help me. And Scheizty is right about the acoustic tuning of the intake. But you also said that forced induction would require shorter, wider runners. By making the runners shorter and fatter, i'm assuming it allows the greater MAP pressures to be forced into the cylinders more efficiently due to increased flow requirements, but you have to remember to keep the intake runner length in a specific ratio so that you can take full advantage of the intake pulses.
Really the only thing that needs real world testing is plenum shape and geometries of the intake runners (ie. radius of any curves). Everything else can be done on paper.
thx scheizty for pointing me in the right direction.
maybe i can make a writeup later.... including all equations and the proper way to start such a project.
After online research i found the set of Helmholtz equations to help me. And Scheizty is right about the acoustic tuning of the intake. But you also said that forced induction would require shorter, wider runners. By making the runners shorter and fatter, i'm assuming it allows the greater MAP pressures to be forced into the cylinders more efficiently due to increased flow requirements, but you have to remember to keep the intake runner length in a specific ratio so that you can take full advantage of the intake pulses.
Really the only thing that needs real world testing is plenum shape and geometries of the intake runners (ie. radius of any curves). Everything else can be done on paper.
thx scheizty for pointing me in the right direction.
maybe i can make a writeup later.... including all equations and the proper way to start such a project.
07-10-2008, 07:28 AM
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Re: Designing a new Intake Manifold (hispanic panic)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by hispanic panic »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Really the only thing that needs real world testing is plenum shape and geometries of the intake runners (ie. radius of any curves). Everything else can be done on paper.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
that's generally the gist of making an intake manifold dude. I can't tell you how many times I've heard people, and engineers say "it looks great on paper" but to learn after testing it works for shat.
Really the only thing that needs real world testing is plenum shape and geometries of the intake runners (ie. radius of any curves). Everything else can be done on paper.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
that's generally the gist of making an intake manifold dude. I can't tell you how many times I've heard people, and engineers say "it looks great on paper" but to learn after testing it works for shat.
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07-11-2008, 06:57 AM
#8
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Re: Designing a new Intake Manifold (chimmike)
Haha well the problem most people run into is that they run CFD software or get their **** flow tested and think the higher the better.
Don't get me wrong, getting your **** flow tested is important, But you never want your manifold or cylinder head to flow more than what your target HP flow requirement is.
As a VERY general rule, a turbocharged gasoline engine will generate 9.5-10.5 hp for each lb/min of airflow. So if my target hp is 100, i have to make sure my intake will flow 9.5-10.5 lb/min. As this is just a place to start, further calculations are neccesary involving VE, temps, Brake specific fuel consumption, and target AF ratio in order to determine the correct mass flow rate required for your target peak HP.
I have to make sure my intake flow and volumetric efficiency can support that FIRST.
Thats the proper way to start on paper. BTW there is much more involved, thats just the begining. Thats why i was planning on making a writeup later, including my testing results.
BTw having full data aquisition capabilities is fkn awsome.
Modified by hispanic panic at 4:12 PM 7/11/2008
Don't get me wrong, getting your **** flow tested is important, But you never want your manifold or cylinder head to flow more than what your target HP flow requirement is.
As a VERY general rule, a turbocharged gasoline engine will generate 9.5-10.5 hp for each lb/min of airflow. So if my target hp is 100, i have to make sure my intake will flow 9.5-10.5 lb/min. As this is just a place to start, further calculations are neccesary involving VE, temps, Brake specific fuel consumption, and target AF ratio in order to determine the correct mass flow rate required for your target peak HP.
I have to make sure my intake flow and volumetric efficiency can support that FIRST.
Thats the proper way to start on paper. BTW there is much more involved, thats just the begining. Thats why i was planning on making a writeup later, including my testing results.
BTw having full data aquisition capabilities is fkn awsome.
Modified by hispanic panic at 4:12 PM 7/11/2008
07-14-2008, 02:57 PM
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Re: Designing a new Intake Manifold (hispanic panic)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by hispanic panic »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Ya you see i am an engineer, and inorder to tackle this project i need all the neccesary equations to tackle this project correctly.
After online research i found the set of Helmholtz equations to help me. And Scheizty is right about the acoustic tuning of the intake. But you also said that forced induction would require shorter, wider runners. By making the runners shorter and fatter, i'm assuming it allows the greater MAP pressures to be forced into the cylinders more efficiently due to increased flow requirements, but you have to remember to keep the intake runner length in a specific ratio so that you can take full advantage of the intake pulses.
Really the only thing that needs real world testing is plenum shape and geometries of the intake runners (ie. radius of any curves). Everything else can be done on paper.
thx scheizty for pointing me in the right direction.
maybe i can make a writeup later.... including all equations and the proper way to start such a project.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Short and wide runners are better because they simply have the least resistance. When you run a turbo, you are overriding the need to tune the runners for VE, because the compressed air is pushing the air in much faster and the VE caused by acoustic pressure waves becomes negligible.
I'm not sure what you mean by flow requirements, but the engine can only burn what it ingests, and by having good flow in the manifold increases what you can shove into the chamber when the valve opens.
After online research i found the set of Helmholtz equations to help me. And Scheizty is right about the acoustic tuning of the intake. But you also said that forced induction would require shorter, wider runners. By making the runners shorter and fatter, i'm assuming it allows the greater MAP pressures to be forced into the cylinders more efficiently due to increased flow requirements, but you have to remember to keep the intake runner length in a specific ratio so that you can take full advantage of the intake pulses.
Really the only thing that needs real world testing is plenum shape and geometries of the intake runners (ie. radius of any curves). Everything else can be done on paper.
thx scheizty for pointing me in the right direction.
maybe i can make a writeup later.... including all equations and the proper way to start such a project.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Short and wide runners are better because they simply have the least resistance. When you run a turbo, you are overriding the need to tune the runners for VE, because the compressed air is pushing the air in much faster and the VE caused by acoustic pressure waves becomes negligible.
I'm not sure what you mean by flow requirements, but the engine can only burn what it ingests, and by having good flow in the manifold increases what you can shove into the chamber when the valve opens.
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