shermanyang

iTrader: (1)

i've heard mixed answers and tried searching but there were hardly anything on this subject. Just wanted to know whether the 404 were just as good or better than the 402T for my next 2.0 LS project. i'm not very good with cams so i couldn't answer the question for myself(noob in that category), this is why i'm asking you guys.

for anyone who's used them, which is the best way to dial out the LSA? and is it more lift = more power? and how much duration is too much?


thanks ahead of time guys

vietjdmboi

i have seen a lot of people in my area use the JG 1001 cams with great results. you should look into those also.

batboyvaj

i'll be getting my cams on tues sherman... my motor is going to wagamens soon.

shermanyang

iTrader: (1)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by batboyvaj &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i'll be getting my cams on tues sherman... my motor is going to wagamens soon.</TD></TR></TABLE>


sweet. yeah, i'm debating on whether to get the 404 or the 402T for my setup now. i've heard that the 404 are more responsive and make better top end than the 402T, and that's exactly what i'm looking for since the LS already has great low to mid range power.

95GSRTT

on these it really depends on if its a daily driver. The 404's are supposedly really really harsh for daily driving and I wouldnt recommend them if daily driven. But people have made more power on these than 402t's just like people started making alot more power on ITR cams vs GSR cams. Kinda the same thing, just need to get some cam gears to get the most out of them.

shermanyang

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for the response 95GSRTT, but i've also heard that with knowledge on how to tune these cams with cam gears and ignition/timing map, you can make these idle almost like stock and run smoothly. i'd like to know what the secrets are behind doing this from any experienced tuner who has done this. reason being is cause there are no tuners with this kind of experience up here that i know of.

b16sedan

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 95GSRTT &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">on these it really depends on if its a daily driver. The 404's are supposedly really really harsh for daily driving and I wouldnt recommend them if daily driven. But people have made more power on these than 402t's just like people started making alot more power on ITR cams vs GSR cams. Kinda the same thing, just need to get some cam gears to get the most out of them. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Try driving a 404 car first My roomie daily drives his, B18B block with PR3 pistons, ARP's, ported head, skunk2 manifold, 404's, crower retainers, and uberdata. It idles a bit rumbly, at 750 it sounds almost like a street ported rotary. Brup-brup-brup-brup-brup. I was actually looking into this on Boosted Hybrid's site, he said the 404's would work out OK for turbo, same with the 403's. If you think about it, the Crower 404's still have less duration and overlap than even stock B16 cams, and people rave about the gains going from B16 to GSR or ITR cams, so I can't see 404's doing anything but making more power than 402T's.

erebunicrx

if you idle the car up to about 1k then you idle just fine with no lump at all. if your interested i have a brand new set of 404's pm me if your interested.

PyroProblem

If you want to help the car idle better,hook up a vacuum guage to the intake manifold and set your cams where the vacuum is highest.
Usually this will be done by reducing the overlap or increasing the LSA. Youll probably notice better low end and throttle response but lose a bit on the top end.
Decreasing the LSA giving more overlap usually helps on top end and will make your idle lope more...
This is generally speaking of camshafts...HTH

soon2brb240

I'm quite interested in this too, i'm about to turbo my LS, and I think it'd be great to have some nice turbo cams, but I heard that the "lopey" idle from increased duration is no good for boost. But if you can still make more power with the 404's than stock then it sounds like a good idea.

22psicrx

I had crower turbo cams stage 2 turbo, had them for 2 years and one just broke in half, wiped out 8 exhaust valves in the process, called crower they said they will give me half off a new pair, well I just put my stock cams back in and retuned it. believe it or not I had to add more fuel to the top end and mid. Maybe stock cams are better.

b16sedan

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 22psicrx &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I had crower turbo cams stage 2 turbo, had them for 2 years and one just broke in half, wiped out 8 exhaust valves in the process, called crower they said they will give me half off a new pair, well I just put my stock cams back in and retuned it. believe it or not I had to add more fuel to the top end and mid. Maybe stock cams are better.</TD></TR></TABLE>

You had to add more fuel on the top end because your motor was less efficient and it's BSFC went up, that doesn't mean you're making more power, because the odds of LS cams making more top end power over 402T's is about the same as a snowball's chance in hell.

soon2brb240

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by b16sedan &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">the odds of LS cams making more top end power over 402T's is about the same as a snowball's chance in hell.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Hahaha, sounds good!

shermanyang

iTrader: (1)

thanks everyone for replying. my motor setup is hard to make idle under 1k due to the large 1008cc injectors. i've tried and have done it before(making it idle at 900rpm) but throttle response was sluggish. i guess i'll get'em and try what PyroProblem suggested.

Jefnes

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by b16sedan &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

You had to add more fuel on the top end because your motor was less efficient and it's BSFC went up, that doesn't mean you're making more power, because the odds of LS cams making more top end power over 402T's is about the same as a snowball's chance in hell.</TD></TR></TABLE>

True, I doubt an LS cam could make more than 402T's.

This wasn't on an LS cam/motor...
B16a now with ~stock cams. (what we had handy)

-Jeffrey Atwood

soon2brb240

So, with the 404's would you be able to have the lopey idle, and also make more power than stock or 402t's? I don't know about everyone else, but I LOVE the sound of a 4 cyl camming

shermanyang

iTrader: (1)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by soon2brb240 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">So, with the 404's would you be able to have the lopey idle, and also make more power than stock or 402t's? I don't know about everyone else, but I LOVE the sound of a 4 cyl camming </TD></TR></TABLE>


LOL, my old 62402 cams gave me a lopey idle and i've got a straight 3" exhaust so my car sounded just like a minature hot rod.


BTW, just bought some Crower 404's, dual valve springs, TI retainers

just waiting to take apart my motor for my 2.0L build now.

soon2brb240

I think i'm gonna be a rebel and use the 404's with my setup, if it sucks i'll just sell them and go back to stock, or get some 402t's

allmotorej8

im doing 404 with turbo soon...
tunning is the KEY

soon2brb240

Let us know how it goes! I'm quite anxious to hear!

allmotorej8

no problem, its all actually installed in right now.
before the turbo went in, i did a compression test first
i got 185 across the board with 3rd cyl at 175, a fully built ls head with 404's.
i did a a complete full tune up and now im waiting on my tunner to come and use a wideband and tune it with uberdata on my customs set up, full race manifold, tial 38mm wastegate, super t3, 2.5inch DP,custom chargedpipes, etc. car idles rough and i turned up the fp and it idled the same. i then played wiht the ignition and it was a little bit better. i didnt want to use a fmu, missing link, or safc or anything. so im waiting for my tunner to tune it for me rihgt now, im not driving it right now. but i cant wait for a test drive till it's tuned. its not goign to be till this week probably though. btw, my bottom end internals is completely stock..

liam821

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by vietjdmboi &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i have seen a lot of people in my area use the JG 1001 cams with great results. you should look into those also.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Ive run both Crower 404s and JG 1001s in my dohc ZC (Crower did a custom 404 grind for me). The Crower cams have less lift but more duration then the JG cams. The JG cams idle better and have a better midrange i think. As for top end its really hard to say which is better, both pulled strong to 9000rpms on my ZC.

Im currently running my JG cams and have the crowers in a box. One of these days with all my free time (haha) ill dyno both back to back.

***EDIT 404s have similar duration and more lift then a GSR***

Just a side note, stock VTEC GSR cams still have both similar duration and but less lift then Crower 404s. The crower 405s are very similar to CTR cams. So i say run big *** cams, all the vtec guys make killer power with their vtec cams there is no reason why a non-vtec with big cams cant make the same power as a vtec cam (providing the head can flow similar numbers of course, which a stock non-vtec honda head cant But thats what p&p is for ).

liam


Modified by liam821 at 2:18 PM 5/6/2005

soon2brb240

Well, this is just awesome, 404's should help the LS up top, which it needs, and as an added bonus for me, it'll lope really hard...haha. This is going to be my next thing to do after I get my whole setup running good

liam821

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by soon2brb240 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Well, this is just awesome, 404's should help the LS up top, which it needs, and as an added bonus for me, it'll lope really hard...haha. This is going to be my next thing to do after I get my whole setup running good </TD></TR></TABLE>

Agree. Hondas like big cams, why fight that.

liam

Drag_On

I love this topic..

Whos going to tune the 404s and new set up Sherman? Shane at Elite?

I would drive to Chicago and let Dave from WhipFactory tune it..