Castor

Hey guys, I've done some searching around the forums to get some questions answered, and I've answered most of them. A couple of them are still unanswered, though. Bare with me, I'm a bit of a newbie.

I have a 2000 si coupe. I just recieved the turbo kit I ordered, and I'm getting ready to send it in to the shop. To give you some background, my car currently has:

Greddy SP2 Catback Exhaust
Exedy Stage 1 Clutch (Probably going to need something better once I'm turbo)
Fidanza 8.5lb flywheel
generic cold air yadda yadda


I went with the Drag Gen 3 kit. Something not too expensive, but has a quality turbo (Turbonetics t3/t4).

My main question here is tuning. The kit came with the following, in terms of the fuel department:

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Drag High pressure/High volume inline fuel pump
Drag Boost dependent FMU fuel regulator
Map sensor bypass valve assembly
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Now, the shop I'm taking it to is a very capable one. Given this setup, how easily tuned is this car? Do I need to, perhaps, go with a Hondata unit before going boost? I will be honest with you. I know very little about tuning, and I'm kind of lost. I don't want the car to run like crap. This is my first turbo car, my previous hondas were both NA and both slow.

Any help is appreciated!

kyden

go with hondata/uberdata/crome/neptune
walbro 255 pump
bigger injectors. probably 440 would be good for you.

Castor

Is that all that is required to tune with hondata? The extra fuel flow capability?

litterbox

Talk to the shop and get their recommendations. Have them explain your options. That will be alot easier.

Castor

Basically what I was told is that, dependant on the fuel setup, you have a few ways of handling it:

a) stock ecu (apparently some turbos run fine on stock maps? I don't know if that makes sense)

b) external controller (I'm assuming hondata, etc). And getting it dyno-tuned.

c) fixed maps? I'm not sure if I understood this, but apparently some kits ship with recommended maps? I'm not even sure THAT makes sense.


Ugh. I'm lost. &gt;_&lt;

My best guess is if I run this with the stock ecu, the "boost dependant FMU" is going to regulate fuel pressure as needed. That seems kind of like a hack method? I honestly don't know.

My thoughts are that I should do as the previous poster stated: Get hondata, a 255lph pump and some bigger injectors. Install the kit, and move it to a dynotuning shop to make it run right. Seem correct?

How much of this is necessary? I'd rather do these things later, if they're considered "upgrades" over the current application, which (for all I know), may work just fine.


This is the kit, by the way:
http://www.dragturbokits.com/index.html

deadlock32

ok man... I know you've got the turbo hot on your hands and are egar to put it in... but fuel management is the difference between a running car and one you gotta get towed... and also the difference between a 12sec and a 14sec car if every thing else is the same.

An FMU really taxes on your fuel system, and is only reliable to 6psi or 45% more whp... but I NEVER recommend using one. NEVER. PLEASE DONT. I LUFF HONDA DONT MAKE ME CRY!

Another route is the AFC 'hack'. its much better than an fmu, but its far from ideal. the basics is you buy larger fuel injectors and you get 'missing link' or something that prevents your ecu from seeing boost (because it will **** a brick and go into lymp mode if it does) and since the larger injectors will be recieving the signal as the stock injectors more fuel is thown into the mix. When you have the AFC setup what you do is change the amount of fuel they are throwing out by a percent, so if you have 2x larger injectors, cutting the voltage going to them by 50% will leave you near stock. This is recommened only up to 8psi or lets say 70% whp, of course it has been done at higher levels. more info here: http://turbod16.com/viewtopic.php?t=2118

finally the cream of the crop... stand alone engine management, in the from of hondata, crome, aemems, neptune. these guys replace your ECU (or are a mod of your ecu) and contain the currect fuel maps you will need. Of course you need to get the car tuned becuase every car will have different fuel maps per application. Even if you have the exact same parts from one car, fine tuning can ensure you are running as optimal a possible. You can run from a base map from another car with similar/exact mods as you but, i would never run the car hard with that type of base map... just used it to get you to a tuner... a DYNO TUNER would be the best. Standalone engine management keeps getting better, psi is not the issue with engine management, it starts getting to the point of what HP your car can handle... like us D16s can go to 200 which is 100% more whp for me, with a good tune but have seen guys go as high as 270 on stock internals (except for arp head studs) almost for got in this mess... remember to upgrade the injectors fuel pump, and possibly your map sensor.

that reminds me... DO ARP HEADSTUDS for which ever route you take... keeps your head on your block. = ] and synthetic oil... mobil fully synthetic is great stuff, and easy to pick up... unlike the ams oil, which i also recommend.

RESEARCH RESEARCH RESEARCH... please = ]

Castor

Thanks for the info. I think I'm going to go with Hondata, fuel pump and bigger injectors. What does upgrading the MAP sensor entail?

I'm in a rush to boost, but I don't want to be reckless.

deadlock32

a stock honda map sensor can read up to... i think 11 psi. The sensors are measured in bars like 1bar 2bar 2.5bar 3bar, the higher the bar the more boost it can detect. I'd recommend getting the motorola 2.5 bar sensor, its inexpensive, small and very sensitive... makes for good idling = ]

Castor

Cool, thanks. Can anyone verify everything that's been said? Not that I don't believe the guy (he seems knowledgable), but I want to be sure I'm getting correct info.

Thanks again for the info!

mwieczorek43

Are you willing to convert to obd1? Im assuming cause you're going boost you don't have to worry about emissions...
If i were you I'd convert to obd1, get a p28 or whatev (P30 for b16?? i don't know), and run a crome or Uberdata... With the money you saved you'll be able to spend more time on the dyno. Again just my .02.

Castor

I'm pretty sure I'll stick with the stock ECU, pickup a Hondata S200 system with a bigger fuel pump, bigger injectors and maybe a better MAP sensor? Seems like the way to go.

Luserkid

Since your motor is stock dont worry about the MAP sensor. Just leave your stock one in.

To run Hondata, Uberdata, Crome, etc. youll have to convert to OBD1. Just get a jumper harness and your set. But if you want to stick with your stock ecu you could add a VAFC. Only downside to a VAFC is that you cant adjust timing. But at the same time its a hell of alot better then an FMU and its tuneable.

Fuel and tuning are the most important thing about turbos. Depending on your goal depends on what you should get. Dont go out and get a 255lhp pump and 500 cc injectors just for whatever reason because depending on your goal you could just be throwing away your money.

Go to the shop that your having install your stuff, tell them what type of goals you want and then go from there. Good luck.

deadlock32

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Castor &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'm pretty sure I'll stick with the stock ECU, pickup a Hondata S200 system with a bigger fuel pump, bigger injectors and maybe a better MAP sensor? Seems like the way to go.</TD></TR></TABLE>

hondata needs to be chipped using an obd1 ecu... for what ever reason they cant crack an obdII ecu for these types of engine management. Yes all good forms of engine management will make fail emissions. so every time you have to go for emissions you will need to convert back to obdII... that is until some one gets off their lazy *** and does it. I remember a while back some one was close to cracking OBDII but stopped working on the project for personal reasons. = [

Castor

Excellent information. thanks guys. Didn't you used to have like... a street figher avatar, luser?

Maybe it was Tekken.

Castor

Okay, to bring this topic back to light. I decided that since this is my first turbo application, I won't go all out and I'll learn a little something along the way.

To avoid having to come up with an ODB1 ecu, conversion harness, hondata unit, injectors, pump, regulator, etc... I've decided to try out the VAFC hack for the time being.


Quick question or two for those who have done this before. My understanding is that to do this right, you'll need bigger injectors. I was going to come up with an s-vafc2 unit, rc 440s. Bigger injectors need a higher flowing pump, right? In which case: walbro 255lph pump. I'm assuming that for that, I would also need a fuel pressure regulator like AEM's.

So, would I be right in saying that in order to get a good tune, on a t3/t4 turbo on a b16, using the afc hack, I should have the following:

- s-vafc2 unit
- rc440s
- walbro 255lph fuel pump
- fuel pressure regulator of sorts
- a way to measure fuel pressure

From what I've read on this site and turbod16's forums, this seems to be (mostly) correct. Can anyone confirm that?

_gurusan_

I really wouldn't use the VAFC method. Do it right the first time.

The VAFC only controls fuel, your timing tables will still be way too high for boost and the engine won't last too long (it's a gamble).

Convert to OBD-1 and do the Hondata, you will make more power, more reliably.

deadlock32

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Castor &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Okay, to bring this topic back to light. I decided that since this is my first turbo application, I won't go all out and I'll learn a little something along the way.

To avoid having to come up with an ODB1 ecu, conversion harness, hondata unit, injectors, pump, regulator, etc... I've decided to try out the VAFC hack for the time being.


Quick question or two for those who have done this before. My understanding is that to do this right, you'll need bigger injectors. I was going to come up with an s-vafc2 unit, rc 440s. Bigger injectors need a higher flowing pump, right? In which case: walbro 255lph pump. I'm assuming that for that, I would also need a fuel pressure regulator like AEM's.

So, would I be right in saying that in order to get a good tune, on a t3/t4 turbo on a b16, using the afc hack, I should have the following:

- s-vafc2 unit
- rc440s
- walbro 255lph fuel pump
- fuel pressure regulator of sorts
- a way to measure fuel pressure

From what I've read on this site and turbod16's forums, this seems to be (mostly) correct. Can anyone confirm that?</TD></TR></TABLE>


Please... please just do it the best way. You spend all this money now and you will get it running, but you will spend more money correcting a majory issue wou will have with a vafc setup. If you setup the hondata or neptune, you should have less problems down the road. No joke on a d16z6 308 whp was gotten, on a stock engine just arp head studs.

So you could shoot for 180 whp with the correct way to set up a turbo on a honda and not run into major problems, or max out you vafc setup at 180 whp and risk a rich setup and complications down the line.

Boast is addicting, or so i've been told.

Fast, Cheap, and reliable. You can only pick 2

Castor

Strong points. Should I go hondata, would you know of any place to get an OBD1 ecu?

_gurusan_

You can probably find a hondata system with a p28 in hondatechmarketplace.com .....does your tuner tune hondata?

simplsi

just to put my .02, getting the hondata, was the best move ive done on my car, although my car is not turbo, i do have a fully built motor, and with hondata, im able to correctly use the potential of the parts i spent my hard earned money for, also the OBD2 to OBD1 harness is just a simple connecting piece, its nothing major, i could be wrong, but the way you were talking about it it seemed that you mighta had the impression it was a hard item to install, almost as if you thought you had to change the whole wiring harness for the car. thats all i got, let us know what you end up with. good luck

turbosi03

get the OBD1 conversion harness (easy to install) and a P28, injectors, 255l pump, and I recomend the Hondata because thats what I use... seems like urberdata, chrome, etc will all work as well. the KEY is to find someone around you that can tune it. you don't want to get the chrome setup if no one can tune it...

get everything set up then switch out the ECU and injectors when someone is there to tune it. better yet don't even drive it until it can be tuned.

I recommend a turbo timer or electronic boost controller (anything that can record peak boost) and watch out for boost spikes. I blew my stock motor with the drag 3 kit and hondata with a good tune because it was tuned for 10psi and I had 14psi spikes I didn't pay attention to.

go that route, skip the Vafc hack and definately the FMU... do it right and save the hasstle of rebuilding the motor right away.

oh, and do a shitload more research... everything you need to know is right here on the FI forums TRUST ME, the more you know now, the less you will have to learn the expensive way.

deadlock32

you could find one in the forsale location in this forum, ebay. Get intouch with your future tuner and maybe he/she could get you a chipped obd1 ecu. Remember you need to get it tuned, dyno tuned is the best way to go.

just as an example, by me in IL i've got

http://whipfactory.com/

http://www.grdperformance.com/ (even if they arent big on hondas, guys didnt tell me to get lost when i went to talk to them. Some of my other honda friends that went in there though....)

Castor

Thanks guys.

.dave

Just get the S300 rather than the S200. S200 with boost is $495, S300 is $595 and has a shitload more features.

Or run Neptune, which I think the nearest tuner to you would be Locash or someone like that in Az.

Castor

Yeah... I'm going with Hondata. There's a shop here that comes highly recommended.


Do I need a fuel pressure regulator? This was mentioned to me by another person.