cdsk8tr1's 650whp Project CRX Build thread

 
Old 06-30-2019, 08:58 PM
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Icon5 cdsk8tr1's 650whp Project CRX Build thread

The time has come to plan my turbo setup. My hp goal is 600-650. I started with a stock gsr drive train from a 97 integra. The motor is sleeved, fully built and ready for boost. 9.5:1 compression ratio. Manley rods, Wiseco pistons. Skunk 2 pro 2 cams. Stock hydro trans, refreshed with Quaife lsd installed and Clutch Master twin disc. I'm pretty close to what I need but not sure on the best parts to use for hp goal. I'm looking at a Full Race turbo kit with Borg Warner Efr 76/70 twin scroll. I'm not sure on top mount vs bottom mount, e85 vs 93 octane pump gas with water/meth, injector size i'm thinking 1300cc to 2200cc. Fuel pump, Aem 381 lph. Plan on tuning with s300 in a p28 with coil pack upgrade. Any seasoned tuners have any insight on this setup? Also this build is for road racing with very little street/drag racing. Trying to find that sweet spot of quick spool and nasty mid to high end hp. The motor was professionally built by P&R, pretty much did everything that can be done short of bore/stroke and over sized valves. Engine should be able to hold 1000 hp, my theory was to overbuild for strength and down tune for good power but more longevity. Thanks for any input, I know a lot of gear heads but the honda scene is pretty dead in my area.
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Old 07-01-2019, 08:35 PM
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Default re: cdsk8tr1's 650whp Project CRX Build thread

first id say the cams are way to big if there pro 2's. if there tuner 2's then youd be good. e85 id say 1600cc -2200cc 2200's cause there cheaper. and room to grow. e85 if your going to be on a road course and lots of heat soak. BorgWarner s258-S360 for the turbo if funds are a issue. if you have a decent budget id contact TheShodan for a snail. id think you'd want a ram horn to a mini ram for spool up and boost recovery also don't think the stock trans will live to long. good luck on your adventures
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Old 07-02-2019, 03:32 AM
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Default re: cdsk8tr1's 650whp Project CRX Build thread

+1 on E85 and 2200 injectors. Just be careful on pump E85, you'll want to tune with a flex fuel sensor because if/when you get a batch of E50 it might not like the 600+hp. In this case I would tune with a high and low boost setting so you can run on high when you have true E70-E85 and low boost when below E70. Also anytime you are on the street with street tires, 600+hp will be unusable so the low boost in the 400-450whp range may come in handy there as well. But in any event I think this setup would be more reliable than pump 93 with water/meth injection.

Make sure you build in a solid cooling system, you will need a good radiator and fan, preferably a SPAL puller with plenty of air flow to keep it cool. EF's with turbo B series are notorious for running hot, and I imagine this could especially be a problem if you are road racing the car.

Sounds like a sweet build overall.
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Old 07-02-2019, 03:44 AM
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Default re: cdsk8tr1's 650whp Project CRX Build thread

Just a tip, when looking at your turbo/manifold selection take into consideration the chassis, cooling system, and clearance. The 88-91 is much tighter. For example, a T4 divided topmount app w/ the extended snout EFR turbine housing would without a doubt be a clearance/radiant heat nightmare; especially on a road coarse type app where heat is a prevalent issue. Cooling/air flow are major for the 88-91.

I'd also agree w/ 2200s and E85 combo...though I think the car would probably end up being "faster" with less power in the usabale range.
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Old 07-02-2019, 04:00 AM
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Default re: cdsk8tr1's 650whp Project CRX Build thread

Skunk2 pro2 Cams requires some very heavy duty springs and retainers
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Old 07-02-2019, 07:40 AM
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Default re: cdsk8tr1's 650whp Project CRX Build thread

650whp for road racing is overkill in my opinion, second there is no need for Skunk2 Pro 2's, Pro 1's at all. I made 715whp with ITR cams and stock ITR throttle body so there is no need for a cam like that, I ended up going with a Pro1 eventually and made 1060whp with them.

I would also focus on a bullet proof valvetrain if there is such a thing LOL and would be investing in the best valve train components as possible. You are going to be revving the car pretty high many times over a long period of time so I would try and think about that.
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Old 07-02-2019, 08:06 AM
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Default re: cdsk8tr1's 650whp Project CRX Build thread

Originally Posted by AZ_CIVIC View Post
650whp for road racing is overkill in my opinion, second there is no need for Skunk2 Pro 2's, Pro 1's at all. I made 715whp with ITR cams and stock ITR throttle body so there is no need for a cam like that, I ended up going with a Pro1 eventually and made 1060whp with them.

I would also focus on a bullet proof valvetrain if there is such a thing LOL and would be investing in the best valve train components as possible. You are going to be revving the car pretty high many times over a long period of time so I would try and think about that.
Agreed 100% ITR cams will take you far, as they have many others. I assume you're just doing HPDE right now, maybe I could see it if you were doing a time attack setup but even still the goal is overkill.

I don't mean offense by this but, do you have many HPDE events under your belt yet?
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Old 07-02-2019, 09:09 AM
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Default re: cdsk8tr1's 650whp Project CRX Build thread

Originally Posted by AZ_CIVIC View Post
650whp for road racing is overkill in my opinion...
There is a seemingly common infatuation with an overwhelming amount of whp regardless of the application or situation for the purpose of the car. I think it's more of a conversation piece type of thing that has been fueled/jaded by the internet. (me thinking out loud...anyway)
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Old 07-02-2019, 09:12 AM
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Default re: cdsk8tr1's 650whp Project CRX Build thread

Originally Posted by Autoworks View Post
There is a seemingly common infatuation with an overwhelming amount of whp regardless of the application or situation for the purpose of the car. I think it's more of a conversation piece type of thing that has been fueled/jaded by the internet. (me thinking out loud...anyway)
I mean, unless you're doing boost by gear and want it to be able to pull just as hard in 4th as it does in 2nd

But yeah pretty much.
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Old 07-02-2019, 09:48 AM
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Default re: cdsk8tr1's 650whp Project CRX Build thread

Originally Posted by Autoworks View Post
There is a seemingly common infatuation with an overwhelming amount of whp regardless of the application or situation for the purpose of the car. I think it's more of a conversation piece type of thing that has been fueled/jaded by the internet. (me thinking out loud...anyway)
Agreed. But it's an easy trap to fall into...especially for someone who is building a forced induction Honda for the first time (not suggesting that's the case for the OP). My first time around I had no real direction and was just buying what parts I thought were cool. I spent $900 on my manifold and $0 on the bottom end, lol. The market being flooded with cheap knock-off parts worsens the issue because being able to afford a boosted Honda seems attainable, but in the end most people end up frustrated and with blown up ****, and no more money to replace the cheap parts and do it the right way.
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Old 07-02-2019, 10:40 AM
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Default re: cdsk8tr1's 650whp Project CRX Build thread

Originally Posted by DaX View Post
Agreed. But it's an easy trap to fall into...especially for someone who is building a forced induction Honda for the first time (not suggesting that's the case for the OP). My first time around I had no real direction and was just buying what parts I thought were cool. I spent $900 on my manifold and $0 on the bottom end, lol. The market being flooded with cheap knock-off parts worsens the issue because being able to afford a boosted Honda seems attainable, but in the end most people end up frustrated and with blown up ****, and no more money to replace the cheap parts and do it the right way.

Biggest problem is shops not providing real direction, if I told my engine builder the power I want, what I am doing, they would provide me the proper path to making that happen.

I've found when you want the best you really need to talk with the best, just my opinion. Also when I say the best I am not referring to only huge WHP builds, I mean if you want a 400whp setup a shop should be able to tell you the best path to making that happen.
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Old 07-02-2019, 12:33 PM
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Default re: cdsk8tr1's 650whp Project CRX Build thread

Thanks for all the input. I went with the skunk 2 pro 2 cams because that's what the engine builder recommended. Don't know if i will keep them, will have to see how it responds. The motor was fully built though including squared decked, diamond honed, torque plate on block, align hone crank tunnel, micro polished crank. Darton mid sleeves, manley rods, wiseco pistons, complete head job, 3 angle valve seats,casting imperfections smoothed. king coated bearings, cometic head gasket, skunk 2 pro valve springs, ferrea inconel valves, arp625+ headstuds, skunk 2 lost motion springs, skunk 2 adjustable cam gears, ati superdamper crank pulley, moroso baffled oil pan. I made some louvers on the hood and have hood hinge risers to help cooling. I may run the hush performace 3 piece front end for room for intercooler and radiator. As for the power level, yeah it's probably overkill but too much is better than not enough. I plan on having multiple maps for different boost levels. Also to hookup will do boost by gear and plan on running a full race traction bar and running maybe 17x10's up front. Money is not an issue for this build, so i really want a new borg warger efr, they seem to be the most advanced turbo on the market. I just really don't want a massive laggy turbo. The Efr twin scroll supposedly spools very fast and looking at the recommended sizes the 76/70 looks about right. Sure it uses the bigger housing but wouldn't the twin scroll make up for it? It's advertised at 400 to 650 hp. Everything i'm reading is pointing to e85 as the best fuel to use.

Thanks for all input, no hate, this is my first turbo build but have been playing with honda's for about 6 years. I'm currently on my 4th Crx and my daily driver is an Rsx type s.
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Old 07-02-2019, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by AZ_CIVIC View Post
650whp for road racing is overkill in my opinion, second there is no need for Skunk2 Pro 2's, Pro 1's at all. I made 715whp with ITR cams and stock ITR throttle body so there is no need for a cam like that, I ended up going with a Pro1 eventually and made 1060whp with them.

I would also focus on a bullet proof valvetrain if there is such a thing LOL and would be investing in the best valve train components as possible. You are going to be revving the car pretty high many times over a long period of time so I would try and think about that.
I agree with AZ_CIVIC. Way too much power, and the wrong exhaust manifold/turbocharger/power level combination for a circuit build, again, with an emphasis on Greg's assessment of a logistic's nightmare for space savings, heat transfer and keeping any power to the ground. Including the Larger 2200cc injectors. Just because Bosch has better spray patterns and atomization properties than Rochester/Lucas, doesn't mean you need that much injector unless you're running the appropriate fuel for the BSFC needs of the car, like using E85 or some other high-knock resistant fuel that has a low BTU energy combustion rate.

You're taking a Drag race-oriented setup in a small chassis like an EF and attempting to take this to a circuit/road course. The Block is sound, the valvetrain needs to be on par, the camshaft is too large, and the power level needs to drop to about half of what you propose focusing on torque output and not power. The only reason to even remotely go for this power is if you are about to get involved in the World Time Attack Circuit, and even that takes a LOT of years of experience behind the wheel in a car much less powerful to start off with.

Here's an example of what I mean by a more appropriate build for your purpose. (Please note: Boersma more recently entered into World Time Attack, in which only then did the team increase power to about 510whp, with the correct Aero and support to match the platform. The entire car started with 300whp, and gradually went to 500whp as they changed classes)

See Post #2127 on Boersma Racing Civic Here
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Old 07-02-2019, 01:06 PM
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Default Re: cdsk8tr1's 650whp Project CRX Build thread

Originally Posted by 2x0 View Post
I mean, unless you're doing boost by gear and want it to be able to pull just as hard in 4th as it does in 2nd

But yeah pretty much.
Boost-by-gear doesn't save anyone in that class of racing with too much power.. Period.
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Old 07-02-2019, 01:52 PM
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Default Re: cdsk8tr1's 650whp Project CRX Build thread

This is very good info. Plans change over time and my first idea was to make a 1000 hp beast for drag racing but after paying for the motor did not want something so radical that it would blow up in one season. So i started thinking about something that i could focus on time attack with the ocasional drag race and be almost streetable. So I made sure that the motor was at least strong and i'm doing endless research before I go in 1 direction only. I would like kind of a jack of all trades out of my race car, fast, quick, good handling and stopping. Something respectable at the drag strip, snappy out of a corner and able to idle well enough to drive on a nice summer day around town. Maybe 600-650 hp is too much, what would be the ideal power level for a well rounded fwd that's fast around a track but could still put down a 10 second quarter mile? Would the drag racing trick of adding a weight bar to the front end help with traction in a road racing scenario?
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Old 07-03-2019, 08:12 AM
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Default Re: cdsk8tr1's 650whp Project CRX Build thread

I am no expert by any means that is why I seek answers before dumping thousands on parts. I may go a little smaller on the turbo but still want big power. If I wanted 300 hp I would have just slapped a cheap ebay turbo onto a stock motor. I am aware of the traction issues and possible narrow powerband of a high power build. I welcome the challenge. Seems like a lot of people start with a small turbo, crave more power then buy a bigger turbo. I may have to buy cams twice from lack of knowledge apparently. I don't want to buy turbos twice. What are the general performance qualities of small turbo vs big turbo? Like for example on the 1.8 litre 9.5:1 Cr how would a bigger turbo say at half boost run compared to a small turbo, at full boost at the same power level? Also what about longevity, pushing the small turbo to it's limit vs a larger turbo not revving to the moon?
Again, I don't know what I'm talking about, all researched info/opinion and no turbo experience. I have an open mind but do know what I want and it's way more than 300 hp.
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Old 07-03-2019, 08:50 AM
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Default Re: cdsk8tr1's 650whp Project CRX Build thread

Originally Posted by cdsk8r1 View Post
I am no expert by any means that is why I seek answers before dumping thousands on parts. I may go a little smaller on the turbo but still want big power. If I wanted 300 hp I would have just slapped a cheap ebay turbo onto a stock motor. I am aware of the traction issues and possible narrow powerband of a high power build. I welcome the challenge. Seems like a lot of people start with a small turbo, crave more power then buy a bigger turbo. I may have to buy cams twice from lack of knowledge apparently. I don't want to buy turbos twice. What are the general performance qualities of small turbo vs big turbo? Like for example on the 1.8 litre 9.5:1 Cr how would a bigger turbo say at half boost run compared to a small turbo, at full boost at the same power level? Also what about longevity, pushing the small turbo to it's limit vs a larger turbo not revving to the moon?
Again, I don't know what I'm talking about, all researched info/opinion and no turbo experience. I have an open mind but do know what I want and it's way more than 300 hp.
Going with an eBay turbo just for a lower HP goal is the wrong mindset. You should use a quality turbo regardless of your goal. I'll let the experts chime in, but with my limited experience it's hard to "have your cake and eat it too" with turbos. For top end, you typically have to give up spool, and vice versa. This is why most folks here stress laying out your goals and going from there. Turbos operate in efficiency ranges - being out of range on either end is not ideal.
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Old 07-03-2019, 08:54 AM
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Default Re: cdsk8tr1's 650whp Project CRX Build thread

The difference will be in response time. Regardless of what RPM you are at, when you stab the throttle you will have to wait longer with the bigger turbo before the car accelerates. This is why in many applications where you are not at WOT and upper RPM range 100% of the time (aka drag racing) a smaller sized turbo will actually result in a faster car.
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Old 07-03-2019, 10:29 AM
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Default Re: cdsk8tr1's 650whp Project CRX Build thread

Precision 5557e, Garrett GTW3476 (5857), GT35.. A few that should get you in the range you're looking, with the proper supporting mods.. The precision and Garrett are very similar in specs, garrett good for 550 easy, 600 with a little push..
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Old 07-03-2019, 12:57 PM
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Default Re: cdsk8tr1's 650whp Project CRX Build thread

Originally Posted by cdsk8r1 View Post
This is very good info. Plans change over time and my first idea was to make a 1000 hp beast for drag racing but after paying for the motor did not want something so radical that it would blow up in one season. So i started thinking about something that i could focus on time attack with the ocasional drag race and be almost streetable. So I made sure that the motor was at least strong and i'm doing endless research before I go in 1 direction only. I would like kind of a jack of all trades out of my race car, fast, quick, good handling and stopping. Something respectable at the drag strip, snappy out of a corner and able to idle well enough to drive on a nice summer day around town. Maybe 600-650 hp is too much, what would be the ideal power level for a well rounded fwd that's fast around a track but could still put down a 10 second quarter mile? Would the drag racing trick of adding a weight bar to the front end help with traction in a road racing scenario?
I get what you're trying to do, but it is too extreme of the difference between the two types of racing. If you think you going to get within the 10 second range , and still have lots of traction and turning ability on a road course, you're not going to get that one application in a CRX.

Don't get me wrong, you'll come close, but the setups are very different from a suspension, tyre, & power point of view. A simple traction bat isn't going to do it.

Aim for for the 400whp range, without all the top mount nonsense, and a more suitable (smaller) turbocharger. A GT35 family turbine series is definitely too far. Remember, with your power-to-weight ratio of a CRX, you don't need as much power to perform well, anyway. Stick with about 51-56lbs/min , and you're Golden
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Old 07-03-2019, 01:22 PM
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Default Re: cdsk8tr1's 650whp Project CRX Build thread

Make sure to degree those skunk2 cams! It’s not optional
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Old 07-05-2019, 08:21 AM
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Default Re: cdsk8tr1's 650whp Project CRX Build thread

Interesting stuff. Check out this turbo, it's one step down from the one I was looking at.
https://www.full-race.com/store/borg...-7064-turbo-2/
56/lbs./minute, twin scroll, ceramic ball bearing, water cooled.
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Old 07-05-2019, 09:59 AM
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Default Re: cdsk8tr1's 650whp Project CRX Build thread

Originally Posted by cdsk8r1 View Post
Interesting stuff. Check out this turbo, it's one step down from the one I was looking at.
https://www.full-race.com/store/borg...-7064-turbo-2/
56/lbs./minute, twin scroll, ceramic ball bearing, water cooled.
Looks like the stuff I will only ever see in my dreams

Seriously tho I never even knew a turbo speed sensor and gauge was a thing. Pretty cool stuff. I envy all you guys who can say "money is not an issue" when referring to your builds.
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Old 07-05-2019, 10:39 AM
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Default Re: cdsk8tr1's 650whp Project CRX Build thread

Originally Posted by 2x0 View Post
Looks like the stuff I will only ever see in my dreams

Seriously tho I never even knew a turbo speed sensor and gauge was a thing. Pretty cool stuff. I envy all you guys who can say "money is not an issue" when referring to your builds.
Don't let those quotes fool you bro LOL, you will know when "money is not an issue" when you see certain builds.
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Old 07-06-2019, 04:51 PM
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Default Re: cdsk8tr1's 650whp Project CRX Build thread

Originally Posted by cdsk8r1 View Post
Interesting stuff. Check out this turbo, it's one step down from the one I was looking at.
https://www.full-race.com/store/borg...-7064-turbo-2/
56/lbs./minute, twin scroll, ceramic ball bearing, water cooled.
Many others that can do the job also. The twin scroll isn't as much as a concern at that size unless the exhaust manifold is purposely designed to match
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