Ekasey

UPDATE

So we got the motor on the dyno today and fired her up made sure evryhting is good for tomorrow for the base tune and setup. No leaks all good to go











This is the best way to get constant comparative back to back R & D results!!!!!!

Hi guys!

We are nearing the beggining of our Research and devlopment project.

What is the purpose of this project?

The purpose of this project is to establish relations of highly developed 4 valve engines that are turbocharged/sc and do a complete step by step header development.

The engine >?

We choose the F20C platform, it is about as highly devloped as you can get without using an actual race engine.

We will actully be going through the step by step process of developing a header for the supercharged and turbocharged appliaction of our F20C engine.

Why you ask we offer an exclusive header design service that we have devloped in house. We want to make this program even better we have designed headers for over 1850 Race engines! with more then 99.9% success rate.

So why bother? So we can make this exclusive service that we offer to you guys even better!!!

We will also be exploring

Waste gate positioning and sizing

Stepped turbo headers

Tuned length turbo headers

Small vrs large.

and on and on and on we have a lot of work to do so stay tuned.


If you have any exhaust related stuff you think would be a good thing for us to try please let us know we are always open to suggestions!

By the way testing will be done on a DTS engine dyno with datalogging EGT and complete pressure readings taken on every pass.


Thanks for your time

Casey





Modified by eLusive ek4 at 3:30 PM 4/22/2005

Drag_On

Werd

DIRep972

iTrader: (1)

Id like to see a comparison between power/spool up and boost control/wastegate sizing on a manifold where the collector dumps boost directly into the turbine housing and the wastegate dumps the back pressure out the side versus a manifold where the collector dumps boost directly into the wastegate and the back pressure goes out the side into turbine housing.

Zackyt

^^^ What he said

tony1

Sounds like a great test, there's many theories out there, it'd be nice to have facts...

Arturbo

Looking forward to this.

Ekasey

Come on guys we need your input we have plenty of thigns to test.

We also want to destroy or prove any myths out there

shearerfab

I really like the idea behind your test, I wish I had the funding/time to do the same.

Maybe I'm wrong in thinking this but... Hot side selection on the turbo could throw a major wrench into your test data. What works for X turbine combo may be completely different to the Y combo. How do you(or do you) guys plan to address this? Discuss...

Full-Race Geoff

what kind of input are you looking for? Id love to help out however possible, whether you need help with fab or research

Ekasey

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DIRep972 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Id like to see a comparison between power/spool up and boost control/wastegate sizing on a manifold where the collector dumps boost directly into the turbine housing and the wastegate dumps the back pressure out the side versus a manifold where the collector dumps boost directly into the wastegate and the back pressure goes out the side into turbine housing. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Already on the list!!!! that was one of the frist ideas

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ron@smp &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I really like the idea behind your test, I wish I had the funding/time to do the same.

Maybe I'm wrong in thinking this but... Hot side selection on the turbo could throw a major wrench into your test data. What works for X turbine combo may be completely different to the Y combo. How do you(or do you) guys plan to address this? Discuss...</TD></TR></TABLE>

Ron I don't belive you are wrong in thinking this i'm sure the results will vary, however i dont think it will be an overly drastic effect unless your talking comparison like a t25 to a t88 type deal.

Our overall goal is to deliver as much energy to the turbocharger as possiblle.

Through tuned length proper primary sizing etc.


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Full-Race Geoff &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">what kind of input are you looking for? Id love to help out however possible, whether you need help with fab or research</TD></TR></TABLE>

Geoff we are looking to destroy myth's rumors etc. anything out there that ppl are unsure of we are open to ideas!

As far as the help we will defintley let you know!

Chip

Do a test between a merge collector and a formed collector, I would love to see that.

Ekasey

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Chip &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Do a test between a merge collector and a formed collector, I would love to see that.</TD></TR></TABLE>


That is defintley under consideration!!!!!!!!

Enzo-Racing

Sound's Like a great idea.
When will this happen?

i got some idea's for you to test as well

Ekasey

Enzo please e mail me or post your ideas

I'm beggining installing the supercharger this week i will also be attempting to build the dyno header in that same week! argh got my work cut out for me

please.laugh

you use the order in which the cylinders fire and different length tubes so two cylinders hit the turbine's hot side at the same time. To get two big pulses, or even one? There would be an off beat or two depending. You'd have to calculate it all out

Ekasey

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by please.laugh &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">you use the order in which the cylinders fire and different length tubes so two cylinders hit the turbine's hot side at the same time. To get two big pulses, or even one? There would be an off beat or two depending. You'd have to calculate it all out </TD></TR></TABLE>

Im slihgtly confused are you saying we should test this or explaining this?

not to close out an idea but i dont see the purpose of uneven pulsing on somehting that is going to need a steady stream of energy to produce power

shearerfab

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by eLusive ek4 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Ron I don't belive you are wrong in thinking this i'm sure the results will vary, however i dont think it will be an overly drastic effect unless your talking comparison like a t25 to a t88 type deal.

Our overall goal is to deliver as much energy to the turbocharger as possiblle.

Through tuned length proper primary sizing etc.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I see your point. But turbo selection and expected power output will also vary what sized tube I'm going to use on a particular car. I wouldn't use the 2.5" tubing I just used for some headers on a blown altered fuel car on my Talon, nor would I use the 1-7/8 tubing for my talon on a 14b powered 1.6L. You get my point. At some point tubing size will become a choke and any relative test results you guys just completed can probably be tossed out the window.

I'm no expert, you guys are supposed to be. If I'm looking into this to much just tell me to shut the hell up.

Ekasey

sorry quick reply i will edit later

the tubing size etc. will be determined by the characteristics of the engine

shearerfab

Blah n/m, I'll shut up now. I just re-read your first post and it sounds like you are directing it more towards the f20c mota. I originally interpreted differently.

Ekasey

It's not towards the f20c motor its just that f20 c motor fits our criteria

please.laugh

If all the air from all four cylinders hits the turbine at the same time, the velocity of the air as it passes through the unit will be greater than that of the air flowing sequentially. That means higher speeds of the turbine itself. If you can make the length of each tube a cetain lenght such that the pulses from when the engine fires meet at the turbine at the same time, you should be able to spool a larger turbo quicker.

2point2

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by eLusive ek4 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If you have any exhaust related stuff you think would be a good thing for us to try please let us know we are always open to suggestions!</TD></TR></TABLE>




I'd really like to know if this type of wastegate positioning is better.

EDIT: ops.. read the rest of the thread... pics give a good visual though.

please.laugh

If the wastegate is mounted inline with the flow of the air, it would be hugely benificial in a high boost application where your boost level is constantly being adjusted to allow traction in lower gears!!

Oyvind Ryeng

Another possible benefit of using the Hytech manifold would be to lower the pressure in it, wich gives less reversion and backpressure, and allows the use of more extreme cams without reversion polluting the intake charge (when using cams with alot of overlap)?

Ekasey

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by please.laugh &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If all the air from all four cylinders hits the turbine at the same time, the velocity of the air as it passes through the unit will be greater than that of the air flowing sequentially. That means higher speeds of the turbine itself. If you can make the length of each tube a cetain lenght such that the pulses from when the engine fires meet at the turbine at the same time, you should be able to spool a larger turbo quicker.</TD></TR></TABLE>

It would be no problem to calculate out the length to time the pulses for this. The problem i see with one large pulse is that there will be too muhc dead time and the pulsing to spin up the turbine wheels will not be consistent therefore equating to slower spool times.

As in regards to the waste gat postioning we have always agreed with putting it in the path of flow somewhere between a 15 and 45 degree angle.

Reason being is that if the waste gate is being held shut (lower rpm's when you are spooling the turbocharger itself) the passageway leading to the wastegate is going to pressurize. This positive pressure should be enough to from a wall to allow exhaust gases to flow by to the turbine virtually unaffected.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Oyvind Ryeng &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Another possible benefit of using the Hytech manifold would be to lower the pressure in it, wich gives less reversion and backpressure, and allows the use of more extreme cams without reversion polluting the intake charge (when using cams with alot of overlap)?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yes, that could be an advantage but any properly designed header should accomplish that!