Brandonbrinson1

So, this coming summer I'm planning on pulling the B-series out of the integra and building it for boost. My goal is 250whp. I don't plan on going over 12psi of boost, and I was wondering how I should build my motor for it. And before you ask, yes I am buying an eBay turbo kit, as I am in high school and work a minimum wage job, that being said I still want to build the engine and make it somewhat legitimate.

I plan to use:
Oem camshaft
forged pistons
Oem rods
resurface the head (non-vtech)
new head gasket
skunk 2 intake manifold
re do timing belt
(when I say oem, I'm going to buy brand new parts, just stock)

also I plan to delete
Ac
power steering
and heater core

the turbo kit I'm getting has the t3:t4 turbo
I'm going to have to switch the radiator out for a half Rad to make room for the manifold.

this is my plan as if now, any suggestions on what else to do? Or things I put on that are uneccesary?
Also the fuel management unit I'm running is an fmu (DONT HATE)

thanks!

Aradin

This has been covered countless times over. 250whp is nothing for a healthy, bone stock B series. Headstuds, rod bolts and some maintenance items like timing belt/water pump can be done for peace of mind but they're really not 100% required. For your goals, just do a compression & leak down test to see if the engine is healthy and go from there. Forged pistons on stock rods is a dumb move so if you're set on doing that just shell out the extra $350 for a set of good H beams and be done with it. The engine is only as strong as it's weakest link, and I can tell you that Honda connecting rods of that era aren't made of much. The stock pistons and rods are fine at the power level you want anyway so long as the engine is tuned correctly. With that said, you would be much better off reallocating funds from your forged piston budget and putting that towards a real EMS. Even if you just went with Crome free and a street tune it's going to be 1000% better than an FMU.

Also, and I say this from experience, I was in your shoes once many many years ago. It doesn't pay to cut corners doing this kind of thing at all. If you don't do it right the first time, you WILL be doing it again later. If you don't have the budget to do it properly, then just be patient and save ESPECIALLY if the car is your daily. You don't want to be walking to work because you melted a piston or the car isn't running right. Been there, done that. It's not fun at all. Another thing to note is that, again if you plan on using the car for any sort of daily, removing A/C and heat is a very shortsighted move that I highly recommend reconsidering. The comfort you lose from having those two things working properly far outweighs the small weight savings you get by removing them.

Brandonbrinson1

Okay, well if I fork out the extra money and do forged pistons, rods, and rod bolts, plus headstuds, the gaskets and tune up stuff, running the turbo at 12psi what would be a realistic horsepower Goal? I understand that an fmu is by far not the best way to go, I was going to just run that temporarily until I could save for a proper ecu and tune. And no this is not my daily, otherwise I would not take out heater and ac.
So I guess my next question, in an area I don't know much about, I should add, would be, what is the best ecu product to use. I was looking into hondata, however they only made them back to 92, they don't have anything for older hondas, as far as I could tell. If you know much about that, it would be really helpful, as that is my blind spot in my knowledge uf performance upgrades. Also would it be a waste of money to upgrade to a stage 2 clutch or can an oem clutch handle the power I'm potentially going to put out?
Also you talked about just doing a street tune. Is that something I can do a couple hours of research on and have a good idea on how to do it myself? Or is it something that would pay off to have a professional do it?
Sorry for all the questions, I appritiate the help!

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

Leave all of that alone. I'm like Aradin. There are plenty of bolt-on Kits that are of quality materials to work for that power goal without doing any of what you're proposing, except for changing the radiator, and elminating the A/C. If you're changing out these components, do it for maintenance purposes. No forged pistons, no Skunk2 Intake manifold, and keep the heater core. You'll need that more than you think to keep coolant temps down in an emergency.

You can't go by Psi to determine your power level. You must go by the size of the turbocharger itself. Which from what it looks like, you need to know more about turbos a bit more. T3/T4 is a generic term to describe turbine / compressor housings used on aftermarket turbochargers, and not what the turbocharger will really do.

An FMU is garbage, but is functional. Concentrate on the clutch for your transmission, good hardware/software for your tuner to do this with. (don't do it yourself as your daily.. BIG MISTAKE) and more than anything make sure all general maintenance has been followed. From timing belts to fuel filters to compression / leakdown testing. That's how you'll get this to work.
Hondata will work, but you must convert to OBD1 for any system to work, regardless of company. It's entirely new system of ignition control that OBD0 just doesn't have the flexibility for. That means changing the distributor to an OBD1 setup.

G2IC has some answers to check out as well, and see Team-Integra.net

http://forums.g2ic.com/

Aradin

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

I'm going to quickly add the OP's other question from his subsequent thread That we had to delete due to thread cleanup. For future reference, Brandonbrinson1, please keep your questions for this build under one thread, please. It avoids confusion.

a "52 trim" T3/T4 doesn't exist. If it's part of a configuration that happens to have a 52 trim measurement, then that's one thing (like a GT30R for example). But, what you're saying doesn't make sense. Please look at what a true "trim" measurement means under the FAQs, (TurboTech 101 under TurbobyGarrett's site) to know what that means. If you have a specific turbocharger in mind, then please just post that.

As for your choice in attempting to keep the engine stock internally and using bandaids to make it more stout, this is a fool's paradise. 400whp on a B18B1 stock is not reasonably possible. I didn't say that it isn't possible (there's a difference) But you will put the engine in serious jeopardy of destruction regardless of fuel used, because the stock internal components have not been able to hold that kind of power for long. Especially if trying to attempt this on pump gas.

Again, please stop using PSI as a measurement. PSI is worthless unless you know exactly the capability of the turbocharger you plan to use when referencing adiabatic compressor and turbine exhaust flow energy maps. Which.. doesn't seem like you know how to do quite yet, so you're putting the proverbial cart before the horse, so to speak.

PSI itself doesn't harm engines. Detonation harms engines based upon fuel and ignition timing coupled by the use of your intercooler and turbocharger. So,please avoid using that again, unless you've performed what I've stated above. In addition, only the tuner is going to know if its going to take 15 or 19psi to perform anything, so, again.. Crawl before you walk..

Brandonbrinson1

I apologize for the multiple threads this is my first time on a forum and I guess I was unaware of forum edicate. Now I know

Aradin

I'm having a hard time understanding why you jumped from 250whp to 400whp overnight. I understand wanting to change the power goals of a build but it seems like you don't really know what you want yet, still have a lot to learn, and are on a limited budget like you said. You can't go fast for cheap reliably and if finances are going to be an issue even remotely and you don't have the patience to save then I can tell you right now that this hobby isn't for you. The difference between a 250whp build with a stock engine and a even a simple forged rod/piston build for 400whp is in the thousands of dollars easily. Have you ever ridden in a 400whp FWD street car anyway? It's riding the fine line between usable and totally pointless power.

AZ_CIVIC

iTrader: (1)

Question. Why do a lot of guys in forced induction seem to discourage people from going over the 400whp mark? I see the useable power thrown around a lot but am wondering why you couldn't street drive a car with more? For example If I wanted to build a 650whp daily street car but would like to take it to the track on weekend kind of car. I always see guys saying 9:1 compression is a thing of the past because of technology today. What is the difference with todays better street tire compounds, traction control, boost by gear, better turbo's that spool quick but produce bigger power? I mean I don't see why with the right setup you can't make 650whp work on the streets.

Just thought I would ask?

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

I can answer that easily.

1. A matter of safety. When going from lower power levels to higher power levels in the way that OP describes, in most cases, the user just isn't ready to be able to control the car effectively, even with all of the electronics in the world to assist them. Driving with these kinds of power levels when the purpose is for the street in mind is more than dangerous, because they aren't thinking of the OTHER parts of the car properly. (mainly brakes, rotors, fluids, suspension, etc). Just because one is driving in a straight line from light to light doesn't mean that's like driving on a drag strip.. Think about it, A) it's necessary to use that much pointless power, and B) unlike the drag strip, where you end the race, slow down, turn around and limp back to the starting line, you experience brake fade, rough roads with unknown surfaces, and OTHER PEOPLE!!

2. Usability. Simply because one can go to 650whp, doesn't make it a good idea. What people think they want in a car's behaviour is different than what they actually need, when it comes to a good powerband. Many young users look at nothing but peak power, and believe that the power-to-weight ratio that's given is what street drivers are looking for, when really its the torque-to-weight ratio that they really want.

For example, if I know I want 300ft/lbs of torque for a light-to-light situation, (3000-7000rpms) that doesn't mean I necessarily need 500whp peak in order to get that. With the right turbocharger and supplemental parts and tune, I can get 300ft/lbs with only 400whp or so, and still beat the guy that has 600whp peak for the first 400 meters. I've had 350whp Hondas take out 400-450whp Evolutions because they had the right combinations of parts and focused on torque-to-weight ratio and driveline, even in a 1.8 litre.

3. Recovery spool. Hard to have in a 650whp capable car when you're trying to turn, especially when it takes a larger size to accomplish that anyway. And with that sized turbo required to make that power, its hard to just "turn the wick down", take it out of its efficiency range and still have it behave the same as before; it just won't happen.

One has to learn the differences and nuances of these power builds.. then with practice and use at the drag strip, could it remotely possibly behave better on the street.

Aradin

You certainly can do it but it opens the door to more expenses and more issues. For the example the higher you go the more things like an LSD transmission, sticky(aka expensive) tires, stronger drivetrain, stronger brakes, boost by gear, etc all basically become requirements to put the power down safely unless you want a spin box. The cost of a build increases by an incredible amount to have it maintain the same level of reliability and driveability as something a little more reasonable. Comparing a 250-350whp build which can be done for a few thousand, to a full blown 650whp+ build which can easily get into the 10k+ range is comparing two completely different animals. With the exception of the newer Honda engines, most of the older B/H/F series are really starting to push the limits of the factory components in the 300-350whp range depending on how the setup is done. So just getting that extra 50whp to get to 400whp you're going to take a serious hit to reliability or a serious hit to your wallet by building an engine. So I mean, yes it can definitely be done if your pockets are deep enough but for most people they don't need anything like that. Take OP for example, he's talking about getting an eBay turbo kit to do all of this with so that's a big part of the discouragement in here specifically. It basically just falls under "just because you can, doesn't mean you should."

Edit: Yep, what Shodan said too.

AZ_CIVIC

iTrader: (1)

I get what you guys are saying but I am looking at the broad picture not just this guy's situation. You guys are assuming someone who wants a 650whp street car doesn't have experience or the money to buy proper parts. Like when someone asks "can I run 12:1 compression with a turbo setup" you guys always say yes, assuming the individual uses quality parts, the right fuel and has the right tuner tune the car.

Yet when someone asks about 650whp or even 450/500whp on a street car it's always no and you can't use that power. I mean with a sleeved block, good piston rod combo, decent valve train with a set of Type R cams and the right turbo you can make 650whp and it will run and idle perfect. Good clutch and hell a stock GSR trans with LSD will be just fine, you can get some decent brakes, coil overs with a nice tire and be good to go.

Hondata is a good ECU choice that has a good number of options that allow for good street use as well as drag use. Or get an AEM setup that has even more options including traction control.

It just seems like a lot of guys limit power in here to the 350whp mark assuming that people only want to road race or something where instant torque and power in the low range are wanted.

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

Well, yes. Because a majority of these builds on this forum are for street use, or at least want characteristics that are more akin to circuit racing than drag racing. If they were going to utilize this for drag racing (over 650whp) you wouldn't see as many "street/strip" projects as you do here. If they want more than that, then they go the drag racing forum.

We say "no" for over 450whp, because really for the power-to-weight ratios these cars have, it is very hard to control effectively, not just in a straight line with an LSD. It does take a lot of experience to do what you're asking with 650whp, whether you realize it or not.. Especially in an FWD setup with a platform making over 300% more power than the chassis intended.

If you disagree, that's fine, but that's because you're looking at this from a drag racer's looking glass and are used to people using these systems strictly for that purpose. Most of these builds have more than one purpose. I think that's where the disconnect is.

AZ_CIVIC

iTrader: (1)

This is how I would classify Honda Builds for the most part and this is just my opinions and observations.

1. Most Forced Induction threads - "How much power can my stock motor handle" I would put money that those guys could care less about autocross type duty, they would love to build high horsepower cars to either drag race or run freeway pulls but have no money.
2. Guy who wants a street car that he can drive to work everyday, that is reliable and wants power. This is the type of guy who would probably like 450whp, try to keep AC/PS etc. However we all know that once this guy gets 350whp or even 450whp and gets spanked by a higher horsepower car on the drag strip or freeway he will be creating another thread looking for suggestions to up the power.
3. Guy who wants to build a fast drag car and posts in Forced Induction but realizes he is in the wrong section.
4. Guy who wants to build an autocross type car but posts in autocross section.

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

Again, my observations and analysis from helping people with their builds on H-T for 10 years
Isn't it interesting how we both see the same posts, but interpret the connotations different? How refreshing.