Borg Warner - Airwerks..Told You so.
01-27-2006, 08:35 PM
#1
Borg Warner - Airwerks..Told You so.
This test was performed recently from Borg-Warner. This was performed on a stock head, built LS block.. BW and I were pretty pleased with the results with it. If you recall my post a few months back about this, it has finally come to fruition after much research, hard work, and a lot of frappaccinos.. This was compared to a T67 at over 30psi on an original 55lbs/min compressor wheel...
Borg-Warner never had the same marketing tactics as Garrett over the last 25 years in which as I was working as a contractor. Borg-Warner is the 2nd largest competitor in the turbocharger industry, and battle continually with truck against Garrett, and has devoted over 200million in R&D to best them in the performance category.. It's like NIKE and REEBOK competition in the late 90's. One was ENORMOUS, the other almost just as big, but kept themselves pretty quiet.. They decided to use the older marketing strategy which was to go through distributors and customizers, like Garrett and their relationship with Turbonetics. Even before that, they created a HUGE relationship with HKS in Japan. (Little do most people know that by 2004, their relationship would crumble, but Turbonetics would keep this under wraps ) BW's biggest distributor at that time until recently was Innovative Turbos. Though the relationship worked quite well for a number of years, their reputation took a hit because Innovative had a tendency to use some non-standard practices that caused some faulty turbos. They were also not effectively priced to be competative to other Garrett products at the time. They used a lot of AirWerks and Switzer (3K and other types) as part of their entourage. As time went on and Garrett and its distributors created segments of the market that went into the import industry, mainly thanks to Turbonetics, BW finally made incredible strides to ramp up their technology in order to compete with Garrett, though they used a very unique approach.. Strangely enough, since Garrett got really tired of Turbonetics in their reverse engineering of the "T" series applications, they stopped distributing to Turbonetics in 2004, and Turbonetics is currently on their own. I know that for a while they had considered using BW setups, but I believe the negotiations are still pending.
See Garrett utilizes and depends upon the technology from the cartidge, or CHRA in order to make changes to efficiency. Especially when it comes to their GT Ball-bearing series of turbochargers. What they do on average is make a grand Variant of applications that can use Cartridges that can be dual-ballbearing on both parts of the CHRA, or more recently, the popular "ball-bearing replacement cartridge" in which the substitute is actually a Ball-bearing cartridge that is only on one side of the CHRA (typically the compressor side). Because they expected the market to already understand and appreciate the full ball-bearing CHRA, they knew they could market their less expensive version of the GT technology, such as "ball-bearing replacement". Why do you think Precision, Phoenix, and other Garrett distributors advertised this at the same time of release?
Now, BW on the other hand does not depend entirely on their CHRAs in order to make more efficient applications. They use what is called Extended Tip Technology What this entails is more attention to the inducer and exducer variances of the compressor wheels in order to acheive a much more broad powerband of a turbocharger without having to have so many applications to make the same efficient power. One example is the one shown above, the S200 utilizes characteristics that a 50,57, and 60 trim Garrett turbos would have, all in one application. That is why the powerband looks so broad on the map above. Hell, even I thought it was a distortion until I visted the testing site. The changes in these compressor setups is what's making the difference in terms of initial spool up, and high end power, using the same flanging system as Garrett, since it is not at all patented, and is used on many truck engine applications..
So far I've only used the S200 on a couple of test applications, and I'll be hopefully posting up some results in the near future.
I've worked with turbos since the late 1990's and it still amazes me about the amount of competition that is out there for these two companies. We eventually benefit in the end, because it raises the bar in creating and promoting better technological products and better innovations that we can all share...
Here's my link in case you forgot.
https://honda-tech.com/zero...age=2
integragsr-98 was also involved in the process of the dyno results.
I think the lineup is going to be awesome.. my only concern is the packaging of the turbine housings to be comparable to Garrett's universal housing infrastructure
but I'm working with several companies to work on that in the future..
Comments welcome
01-27-2006, 08:54 PM
#2
Honda-Tech Member
impressive
the guys from sls turbo posted this already
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1502471
http://www.dynotuneusa.com/turbocomparo
Modified by igo4bmx at 1:07 AM 1/28/2006
the guys from sls turbo posted this already
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1502471
http://www.dynotuneusa.com/turbocomparo
Modified by igo4bmx at 1:07 AM 1/28/2006
01-27-2006, 09:27 PM
#4
Honda-Tech Member
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Norway
Posts: 428
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Holy crap; that seems like a huge improvement.
But how much smaller is this B/W-turbo in comparison to the T04R-wheeled T67? And what about the exhaust wheel and A/R? Common reluctance and scepticism will have me think that the possibly smaller B/W-turbo was run to it's very max (where the T67 will still flow enough air to make ~200 HP more), leading to the vastly improved midrange and same top-end. I must comment that T67 is, in my impression, the wrong, wrong turbo to use to make "just" 550 to the wheels on a 1.8-litre motor. The same power output could be achieved using a GT3076R (just barely, I think) or, a GT3582R would make 550 with room for a little more, and these would have vastly improved mid-range power in comparison to the overly large T67. In my opinion you are comaring apples to oranges here.
In my opinion, the only logical conclusion I can deduct from your post is that it's vital to choose the right turbo for the right application. Don't use a large one where a smaller one will suffice (albeit with higher boost level as the kicker).
Don't get me wrong, I've seen some of your work and efforts here on H-T, and from what I've read you seem like a very knowledgeable and stand-up guy, and I neither have anything against B/W (I think it's great with more competition, leading to better products for lower prices).
EDIT'ed for great justice.
Modified by Oyvind Ryeng at 7:39 AM 1/28/2006
But how much smaller is this B/W-turbo in comparison to the T04R-wheeled T67? And what about the exhaust wheel and A/R? Common reluctance and scepticism will have me think that the possibly smaller B/W-turbo was run to it's very max (where the T67 will still flow enough air to make ~200 HP more), leading to the vastly improved midrange and same top-end. I must comment that T67 is, in my impression, the wrong, wrong turbo to use to make "just" 550 to the wheels on a 1.8-litre motor. The same power output could be achieved using a GT3076R (just barely, I think) or, a GT3582R would make 550 with room for a little more, and these would have vastly improved mid-range power in comparison to the overly large T67. In my opinion you are comaring apples to oranges here.
In my opinion, the only logical conclusion I can deduct from your post is that it's vital to choose the right turbo for the right application. Don't use a large one where a smaller one will suffice (albeit with higher boost level as the kicker).
Don't get me wrong, I've seen some of your work and efforts here on H-T, and from what I've read you seem like a very knowledgeable and stand-up guy, and I neither have anything against B/W (I think it's great with more competition, leading to better products for lower prices).
EDIT'ed for great justice.
Modified by Oyvind Ryeng at 7:39 AM 1/28/2006
01-27-2006, 10:22 PM
#5
Honda-Tech Member
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: A Place in, Florida, USA
Posts: 7,277
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Borg Warner - Airwerks..Told You so. (TheShodan)
Very impressive. Mac. Are you positive it's a stock LS head? If so it's a mutant, haha. Cant wait to see more from this line of turbochargers.
01-28-2006, 07:12 AM
#6
iTrader: (2)
Re: Borg Warner - Airwerks..Told You so. (0x64)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 0x64 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Very impressive. Mac. Are you positive it's a stock LS head? If so it's a mutant, haha. Cant wait to see more from this line of turbochargers.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Honestly.. a stock LS head....?
Honestly.. a stock LS head....?
Trending Topics
01-28-2006, 08:00 AM
#8
Re: Borg Warner - Airwerks..Told You so. (93turbo16)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 93turbo16 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Honestly.. a stock LS head....? </TD></TR></TABLE>
Sorry, edited for Gs-R..... There was a valvetrain upgrade, but otherwise, yes... stock cams, stock compression, etc..
Modified by TheShodan at 6:05 PM 1/28/2006
Honestly.. a stock LS head....?
</TD></TR></TABLE>Sorry, edited for Gs-R..... There was a valvetrain upgrade, but otherwise, yes... stock cams, stock compression, etc..
Modified by TheShodan at 6:05 PM 1/28/2006
01-28-2006, 08:12 AM
#9
Re: (Oyvind Ryeng)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Oyvind Ryeng »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Holy crap; that seems like a huge improvement.
But how much smaller is this B/W-turbo in comparison to the T04R-wheeled T67? And what about the exhaust wheel and A/R? Common reluctance and scepticism will have me think that the possibly smaller B/W-turbo was run to it's very max (where the T67 will still flow enough air to make ~200 HP more), leading to the vastly improved midrange and same top-end. I must comment that T67 is, in my impression, the wrong, wrong turbo to use to make "just" 550 to the wheels on a 1.8-litre motor. The same power output could be achieved using a GT3076R (just barely, I think) or, a GT3582R would make 550 with room for a little more, and these would have vastly improved mid-range power in comparison to the overly large T67. In my opinion you are comaring apples to oranges here.
In my opinion, the only logical conclusion I can deduct from your post is that it's vital to choose the right turbo for the right application. Don't use a large one where a smaller one will suffice (albeit with higher boost level as the kicker).
Don't get me wrong, I've seen some of your work and efforts here on H-T, and from what I've read you seem like a very knowledgeable and stand-up guy, and I neither have anything against B/W (I think it's great with more competition, leading to better products for lower prices).
EDIT'ed for great justice.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
No. It's cool. Don't worry about it.. I'm always the skeptic and would expect that look of consternation from some people.. When I saw the other data, I had to make sure I wasn't reading it wrong. The S200 was about 2-psi more than the T67 to compensate. Similiar to say a GT3076 to GT35R, how the slightly smaller wheel needs to increase pressure a little bit to compensate.
Remember how I stated in my quote how they use the Compressor wheel design to help with the efficiency as opposed to just the center section like Garrett.
Now. Remember all, this is more informational than anything else. This really is just a taste of some new innovations that are coming in. LOok for more updates with housings sizes, impeller measurements and housings as we continue. BW is right now working on some housing applications to make them more compact. The S300,S400, and S510 can already use T4 sizes to fit, but the smaller applications are already switchable w/ VW Audi. I'll get more data for you soon.
But how much smaller is this B/W-turbo in comparison to the T04R-wheeled T67? And what about the exhaust wheel and A/R? Common reluctance and scepticism will have me think that the possibly smaller B/W-turbo was run to it's very max (where the T67 will still flow enough air to make ~200 HP more), leading to the vastly improved midrange and same top-end. I must comment that T67 is, in my impression, the wrong, wrong turbo to use to make "just" 550 to the wheels on a 1.8-litre motor. The same power output could be achieved using a GT3076R (just barely, I think) or, a GT3582R would make 550 with room for a little more, and these would have vastly improved mid-range power in comparison to the overly large T67. In my opinion you are comaring apples to oranges here.
In my opinion, the only logical conclusion I can deduct from your post is that it's vital to choose the right turbo for the right application. Don't use a large one where a smaller one will suffice (albeit with higher boost level as the kicker).
Don't get me wrong, I've seen some of your work and efforts here on H-T, and from what I've read you seem like a very knowledgeable and stand-up guy, and I neither have anything against B/W (I think it's great with more competition, leading to better products for lower prices).
EDIT'ed for great justice.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
No. It's cool. Don't worry about it.. I'm always the skeptic and would expect that look of consternation from some people.. When I saw the other data, I had to make sure I wasn't reading it wrong. The S200 was about 2-psi more than the T67 to compensate. Similiar to say a GT3076 to GT35R, how the slightly smaller wheel needs to increase pressure a little bit to compensate.
Remember how I stated in my quote how they use the Compressor wheel design to help with the efficiency as opposed to just the center section like Garrett.
Now. Remember all, this is more informational than anything else. This really is just a taste of some new innovations that are coming in. LOok for more updates with housings sizes, impeller measurements and housings as we continue. BW is right now working on some housing applications to make them more compact. The S300,S400, and S510 can already use T4 sizes to fit, but the smaller applications are already switchable w/ VW Audi. I'll get more data for you soon.
01-28-2006, 08:36 AM
#10
iTrader: (2)
Re: Borg Warner - Airwerks..Told You so. (TheShodan)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by TheShodan »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Sorry, edited..... There was a valvetrain upgrade, but otherwise, yes... stock cams, stock compression, etc..</TD></TR></TABLE>
Ok I was gonna say.
but good stuff none the less.
Sorry, edited..... There was a valvetrain upgrade, but otherwise, yes... stock cams, stock compression, etc..</TD></TR></TABLE>
Ok I was gonna say.
but good stuff none the less.
01-28-2006, 08:37 AM
#11
Former Vendor
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 4,116
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Borg Warner - Airwerks..Told You so. (TheShodan)
Motor is a GSR, stock head, cams, and throttlebody.
S200 was @ 30 psi, T67 was @ 25psi. We will be testing the S300 and the T67 heads up next week.
S200 was @ 30 psi, T67 was @ 25psi. We will be testing the S300 and the T67 heads up next week.
01-28-2006, 10:21 AM
#14
Honda-Tech Member
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,550
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Borg Warner - Airwerks..Told You so. (PSI2HI)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by PSI2HI »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Motor is a GSR, stock head, cams, and throttlebody.
S200 was @ 30 psi, T67 was @ 25psi. We will be testing the S300 and the T67 heads up next week.</TD></TR></TABLE>
so the overlay/comparisson is pointless. So whats your guys' next test, a 42r @ 40psi vs. a T70 @ 30psi
S200 was @ 30 psi, T67 was @ 25psi. We will be testing the S300 and the T67 heads up next week.</TD></TR></TABLE>
so the overlay/comparisson is pointless. So whats your guys' next test, a 42r @ 40psi vs. a T70 @ 30psi
01-28-2006, 10:36 AM
#15
Honda-Tech Member
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: South Beach and Chicago, FL, USA
Posts: 6,183
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Re: Borg Warner - Airwerks..Told You so. (b16hybridsol)
How can you compare 2 Turbos, with a 5psi difference in boost?
I have dyno charts of the same car\same turbo...just in one graph the boost controller was screwed up and was making 30psi @ 5,000rpm, then falling back down to 20psi but it was linear with rpm. So what you look at the chart it looks like the turbo makes full spool 5k, then the power plateaus until 9k, which wasn't really the case.
Not to discredit these new turbos...but the test is anything but scientific.
I have dyno charts of the same car\same turbo...just in one graph the boost controller was screwed up and was making 30psi @ 5,000rpm, then falling back down to 20psi but it was linear with rpm. So what you look at the chart it looks like the turbo makes full spool 5k, then the power plateaus until 9k, which wasn't really the case.
Not to discredit these new turbos...but the test is anything but scientific.
01-28-2006, 10:39 AM
#16
Honda-Tech Member
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: ashEVILle, NC, USSR
Posts: 4,417
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Borg Warner - Airwerks..Told You so. (TheShodan)
Interesting.
There's a Borg-Warner plant in town, can't count the number of stolen BW unit's I've tripped over. The rednecks and riceboys who steal them usually go for the tiny S1's as they are easy to cart out, not realizing it's too small for anything worthwhile.
Had two different employees offer me their cost on a turbo or two over the years.... didn't know much about them so I never took them up on the offer.
IIRC, the S200 is rated at a peak of 550-580 hp? So you're right at it's peak output.
There's a Borg-Warner plant in town, can't count the number of stolen BW unit's I've tripped over. The rednecks and riceboys who steal them usually go for the tiny S1's as they are easy to cart out, not realizing it's too small for anything worthwhile.
Had two different employees offer me their cost on a turbo or two over the years.... didn't know much about them so I never took them up on the offer.
IIRC, the S200 is rated at a peak of 550-580 hp? So you're right at it's peak output.
01-28-2006, 12:04 PM
#18
Honda-Tech Member
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: www.js-garage.com
Posts: 6,470
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: (thermal)
why not use ballbearings + extended tip technology??
or let me guess, that would give someone a market advantage.
Modified by Jordo@KAP at 4:32 PM 1/28/2006
or let me guess, that would give someone a market advantage.
Modified by Jordo@KAP at 4:32 PM 1/28/2006
01-28-2006, 06:10 PM
#19
B*A*N*N*E*D
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,661
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Borg Warner - Airwerks..Told You so. (b16hybridsol)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by b16hybridsol »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
so the overlay/comparisson is pointless. So whats your guys' next test, a 42r @ 40psi vs. a T70 @ 30psi </TD></TR></TABLE>
i agree, but don't have enough time right now to type all of whats going thru my mind with this comparison...
apples to oranges, or kiwis to grapefruits?
just to clarify mac, this test boils down to a ~72lb/min wheel vs. a ~50lb/min wheel? maybe try a 57 trim or 60 trim garrett wheel and repost the comparison
give me a call at the shop monday.
so the overlay/comparisson is pointless. So whats your guys' next test, a 42r @ 40psi vs. a T70 @ 30psi
</TD></TR></TABLE>i agree, but don't have enough time right now to type all of whats going thru my mind with this comparison...
apples to oranges, or kiwis to grapefruits?
just to clarify mac, this test boils down to a ~72lb/min wheel vs. a ~50lb/min wheel? maybe try a 57 trim or 60 trim garrett wheel and repost the comparison
give me a call at the shop monday.
01-28-2006, 11:52 PM
#20
Honda-Tech Member
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Norway
Posts: 428
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: (TheShodan)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by TheShodan »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">[...] This really is just a taste of some new innovations that are coming in. LOok for more updates with housings sizes, impeller measurements and housings as we continue. BW is right now working on some housing applications to make them more compact. [...]</TD></TR></TABLE>
These are exciting times. I look foreward to seeing more products from BW.
Am I correct to assume that BW is heavily involved with Schwitzer?
These are exciting times. I look foreward to seeing more products from BW.
Am I correct to assume that BW is heavily involved with Schwitzer?
01-29-2006, 07:03 AM
#21
Junior Member
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Chicagoland, IL, U.S.A.
Posts: 367
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: (Oyvind Ryeng)
Found some relevant links for this turbo including dyno testing...
Thread about some shop that sells those turbos out in ND doing a test comparo with pics of turbo http://www.fargostreet.com/showthread.php?t=5556
Test car owner's website with full engine details here http://www.dynotuneusa.com/turbocomparo
Thread about some shop that sells those turbos out in ND doing a test comparo with pics of turbo http://www.fargostreet.com/showthread.php?t=5556
Test car owner's website with full engine details here http://www.dynotuneusa.com/turbocomparo
01-29-2006, 07:52 AM
#23
Honda-Tech Member
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: ashEVILle, NC, USSR
Posts: 4,417
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: (Oyvind Ryeng)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Oyvind Ryeng »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Am I correct to assume that BW is heavily involved with Schwitzer?</TD></TR></TABLE>
They also either own or have large stock in Holset and KKK.
I've talked to a BW exec before, they gave me the number of an industrial sales rep and I was told the guy would probably be more than happy to give me a one time hookup. I was in my junkyard-**** phase, and never pursued it.
Not that I've stopped being a junkyard-****... it's just that buying used turbos for more than core value is about as rewarding as being sodomized by a donkey.
They also either own or have large stock in Holset and KKK.
I've talked to a BW exec before, they gave me the number of an industrial sales rep and I was told the guy would probably be more than happy to give me a one time hookup. I was in my junkyard-**** phase, and never pursued it.
Not that I've stopped being a junkyard-****... it's just that buying used turbos for more than core value is about as rewarding as being sodomized by a donkey.
01-29-2006, 07:56 AM
#24
wrenchin'
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Full of shit in NY, USA
Posts: 3,643
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Re: (Bryson)
even with the difference in boost levels of the two turbos. one at 30 psi, one at 25, i think the comparison is still SOMEWHAT valid. but for it to work u need one more dyno chart in there. that motor with NO BOOST. then its just simple division. which turbo makes the most power per lb. of boost??
i know this is the VERY NON SCIENTIFIC way of computing, but it would work if dynoed the motor all motor.
or am i WAAAAYYYY off here?? oh, and please dont get into flow rates and efficiancy ranges, i know. i was just trying to make a simple counter argument at 5psi more the borg makes 100 whp. was the garrett making 20 hp per lb of boost on average?? if not, the borg wins!
Brett
i know this is the VERY NON SCIENTIFIC way of computing, but it would work if dynoed the motor all motor.
or am i WAAAAYYYY off here?? oh, and please dont get into flow rates and efficiancy ranges, i know. i was just trying to make a simple counter argument at 5psi more the borg makes 100 whp. was the garrett making 20 hp per lb of boost on average?? if not, the borg wins!
Brett
01-29-2006, 08:17 AM
#25
Honda-Tech Member
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: ashEVILle, NC, USSR
Posts: 4,417
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: (I Have an STD)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by I Have an STD »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">even with the difference in boost levels of the two turbos. one at 30 psi, one at 25, i think the comparison is still SOMEWHAT valid. </TD></TR></TABLE>
It demonstrates the gains of correctly matching turbo to the setup it's going on, and lets people know BW has some good units... if they are affordably priced.
It demonstrates the gains of correctly matching turbo to the setup it's going on, and lets people know BW has some good units... if they are affordably priced.