Civic 1.8

I don't know if this is the right forum to post this but I have a few questions about a friend's project that has gone bad.

Here is the scenario:
His car went to a shop 100 miles away because he had broken ring lands on his stock b16. He installed his own XS power turbo kit, but then developed issues.

While the engine was being replaced, the shop owner talked him into a "good quality" manifold, down pipe and garrett turbo.

These products were a bit of a strech financially, but the work was completed and done very nice. The car was then trailered to a tuning facitlity another 100 miles away that the first shop recomended.

At the tuning facility the engine ran fine, but boost kept dropping from 10psi back to 8psi. The problem was the cheap waste gate that was included with the original XSpower kit. Tunning was completed and the car left running great.

About a month later the turbo manifold's waste gate broke off leaving a huge hole.

The original shop was contacted and they recommended to not drive the car at all and to have the manifold removed to be sent back to it's manufacturer. instead the manifold was rewelded locally and put back on the car.

During the following test drive the car lost compression in 2 cylinders.

The original shop was contacted and an agreement to have them look at the car was made.

The shop began making excuses as to why thier supplied product caused the damage to the engine. They claim that the engine was over boosted after the weld repair.

My friend feels that the shop who installed the prts should replace the engine and all labor at their expense. They are saying no.
Their reasoning is that the car left in good condition, went to a tuning facility, and broke a month later. The manifold should have been rewelded by it's manufacturer
and wasn't. the overboost claim wasn't their fault.

I am curious what you guys would expect from the original shop?

EASY101

nothing

Civic 1.8

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by EASY101 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">nothing</TD></TR></TABLE>

Please explain. The original shop recommended and installed the "high quality" product that broke.

It seems they are making the excuse that the car overboosted. Is that even possible? My friend says he changed nothing what-so-ever and that this was a failure due to poor mechanical assembly.

The only reason why he took it to this shop 100 miles away was because of the good reputation since he didn't want to deal with any failures down the road. The shop needs to be responsible since they talked him into the product.


Modified by Civic 1.8 at 9:51 AM 11/21/2007

bigempty12

Unfortunatly man, in this sport there are two kinds of people. Those that have blown a motor, and those that haven't blown one yet. If you stay in it long enough, you will blow one up. I own a shop, and do alot of turbo installs for people, and it is understood right off the bat, and I even have people sign waivers, that there is no guarantee at all for motors, driveline, anything. I guarantee my work, and that it. Too many factors come in to play with turbo kits, and too many things to go wrong. A builder can't tell someone everything there is to know about what to look for, because sure as that happens something else comes up. A cracked or broken manifold will not overboost an engine, it's not possible. Even rewelding it can't do that. A defective wastegate, or a boost line to the wastegate being torn, ripped, or missing will. On a stock motor a sudden spike of a few lbs can take a motor out in just a few seconds depending on the shape of the motor, and other parts that you have to support turbo. I know how you guys feel as do thousands of others on the forum. Unfortunately you guys don't have much of a leg to stand on. I think at most you can hope for the shop to be sympathetic and help you guys with the rebuild. Now you can build that thing for boost and not worry about it. Sorry to hear about it though.

Boner_Ben

If it "overboosted" its probably because you were using an Ebay wastegate! I'm sure this reputable shop suggested you get yourself a good wastegate instead of that ebay junk.

Civic 1.8

The shop is saying that during tuning it is possible that the manifold cracked causing the drop in boost psi. The tuner experience the problem and continued tuning. The shop says that it is possible that the boost controller was turned up to compensate. When the weld was repaired the original tune was for 10psi may have been much higher, since there was no longer a leak. Is this possible or are they just trying to get away from their responsibilities to the customer?

bigempty12

That is definately possible. In fact that sounds like what happened. I agree that someone should have said something about that because that is easy to diagnose. Did you friend not have a boost guage? 10lbs sounds a bit high for a stock honda motor anyway. I tell people no more than 8lbs if they want any life out of the motor, and no stock cars leave my posession boosting more than 8lbs.

tony1

The original shop is in no way liable for the engine damage. The tuner should have set a boost cut in the management system if it has one. Either way, suck it up, nobody is going to take the blame, and rightfully so.

HRTuning

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tony1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The original shop is in no way liable for the engine damage.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Turbo-charged

shops not responsible.


boost cut

Civic 1.8

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bigempty12 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">That is definately possible. In fact that sounds like what happened. I agree that someone should have said something about that because that is easy to diagnose. Did you friend not have a boost guage? 10lbs sounds a bit high for a stock honda motor anyway. I tell people no more than 8lbs if they want any life out of the motor, and no stock cars leave my posession boosting more than 8lbs. </TD></TR></TABLE>

So are you suggesting the tuner should have caught the issue? IS it their fault?

welfarepc

its your buddys fault for turbo charging a non turbo motor... what did he expect would happen? it would run for another 10 years?

forgot to mention, i hope your boddy hasnt pissed off the shop too much... they are his only resource right now.

Civic 1.8

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by welfarepc &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">its your buddys fault for turbo charging a non turbo motor... what did he expect would happen? it would run for another 10 years? </TD></TR></TABLE>

Well sureley more than a month. Come on

welfarepc

and seriously when the shop suggested he send his manifold back and he didnt..come on. and he still wants them do fix everything for free? haha

if you think thats being mouthy you just have no idea what to expect from a turbo'd n/a STOCK motor, or what to expect from a legit shop owner trying to feed his family.


EDIT: my bad i just saw u said MONTH... yeah a month is how long my stock D15b2 lasted... hehe true true... but still

m R g S r

yeah your friend is dumb for not doing the work himself to start. i don't get why people would even begin to start paying out the *** for a shop to do all the work on THEIR car. a. it's not half as fun, b. if something goes wrong as it did, your friend is now screwed (in reality if he did the work himself a simple $200 LS short block will fix the problem....ls/vtec FTW)
anyway, he is also dumb for using an ebay wastegate, AND for not making sure the tuner set up a boost cut in the program.

m R g S r

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by welfarepc &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">its your buddys fault for turbo charging a non turbo motor... what did he expect would happen? it would run for another 10 years?

.</TD></TR></TABLE>

you're an idiot....unless you were joking, this is a forced induction forum on HONDA tech....not too many honda motors came turbo from the factory

Civic 1.8

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by m R g S r &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">yeah your friend is dumb for not doing the work himself to start. i don't get why people would even begin to start paying out the *** for a shop to do all the work on THEIR car. a. it's not half as fun, b. if something goes wrong as it did, your friend is now screwed (in reality if he did the work himself a simple $200 LS short block will fix the problem....ls/vtec FTW)
anyway, he is also dumb for using an ebay wastegate, AND for not making sure the tuner set up a boost cut in the program. </TD></TR></TABLE>

I dont want this to turn into a bitch out contest, but I never said my friend payed out the *** for anything. I just said the parts were a strech, that is all.
My friend is more than capable of doing the work himself and did his first turbo kit on the car. the whole reason he took it to a "reputable" shop was to make sure the car was done perfect and that there wouldnt be any future issues.
The manifold they recomended broke causing the engine to fail. I think they need to step up and make it right.

m R g S r

oo okay guess to me it kinda seemed like he didn't know what he was doing. So what's the big deal then, just pick up a new shortblock and go to a different tuner. Set a boost cut and get a new wastegate.

Civic 1.8

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by m R g S r &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">oo okay guess to me it kinda seemed like he didn't know what he was doing. So what's the big deal then, just pick up a new shortblock and go to a different tuner. Set a boost cut and get a new wastegate. </TD></TR></TABLE>

The issue is: who is going to pay for it? The shop who recomended the tuner, parts, and did the installation should make it right. its called customer service.

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bigempty12 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Unfortunatly man, in this sport there are two kinds of people. Those that have blown a motor, and those that haven't blown one yet. If you stay in it long enough, you will blow one up. I own a shop, and do alot of turbo installs for people, and it is understood right off the bat, and I even have people sign waivers, that there is no guarantee at all for motors, driveline, anything. I guarantee my work, and that it. Too many factors come in to play with turbo kits, and too many things to go wrong. A builder can't tell someone everything there is to know about what to look for, because sure as that happens something else comes up. A cracked or broken manifold will not overboost an engine, it's not possible. Even rewelding it can't do that. A defective wastegate, or a boost line to the wastegate being torn, ripped, or missing will. On a stock motor a sudden spike of a few lbs can take a motor out in just a few seconds depending on the shape of the motor, and other parts that you have to support turbo. I know how you guys feel as do thousands of others on the forum. Unfortunately you guys don't have much of a leg to stand on. I think at most you can hope for the shop to be sympathetic and help you guys with the rebuild. Now you can build that thing for boost and not worry about it. Sorry to hear about it though. </TD></TR></TABLE>

I Agree. This does happen on occasion

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tony1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The original shop is in no way liable for the engine damage. The tuner should have set a boost cut in the management system if it has one. Either way, suck it up, nobody is going to take the blame, and rightfully so. </TD></TR></TABLE>

The tuner was responsible for keeping an eye on the boost guage, set a boost cut of some sort or been more mindful in this case.

Civic 1.8

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by TheShodan &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
The tuner was responsible for keeping an eye on the boost guage, set a boost cut of some sort or been more mindful in this case.</TD></TR></TABLE>

How do I find out if a boost cut was installed?

Jeffescortlx

If your friend really cared about his motor, what was he doing buying XSpower in the first place? It only takes about a nano second of searching to see that XSpower has the worst reputation for quality.

Anyways, the broken manifold did'nt directly blow the motor. The XSpower mani would of broke to, and would'nt surprise me one bit if it was just a matter of time before the XSpower turbo grenaded.

Who ever was driving the car at the time of the motor getting damaged, its there fault.
A shop cant control what happends to a car once it's out of there hands. The owner sould of been watching the boost gauge and listening for ping.

locash

The car was brought to me by the shop who did the work, and I tuned the car on Neptune, and no, I did not install a boost cut. I also did not know that the manifold was cracked during tuning, obviously this was not expected from a new manifold.

At the same time, it was on a stock Map sensor, tuned at 10 psi of boost, dropping to 8 psi by redline (on wastegate spring pressure?), so there wasn't a lot of room for a boost cut and have the car not hit the boost cut under colder ambient temperatures.

I'll be happy to take the blame for not installing a boost cut, as I felt that I had no room to do so under the given conditions. Obviously, the car probably should have had a 3 bar map sensor on it as well. I tuned the car with what I was given, and it ran fine when it left at the boost level it was tuned at. Under the given situation, had I been informed the manifold was later found to be cracked (and possibly cracked while being tuned), I would have obviously suggested not to boost on the car and to have it brought back for inspection.

The car probably overboosted significantly to cause the engine failure.

On a side note, since I've been drug into this conversation, the car was brought in by a shop that believes in customer service (Collective Racing in Tucson), but can only afford to do so much in this situation. The car had a Turbo Elements turbo manifold on it as well.

Unfortunately, I have no control over boost level once the car leaves.. Also, not that I'm trying to point fingers (because it could partially be pointed at myself, as well as the manifold manufacturer, and the end user), but why should the shop that recommended the parts be liable in any way? They didn't make the parts, tune the car, or drive the car when it blew up, nor was their work in question here, correct?


Modified by locash at 4:36 PM 11/21/2007


Modified by locash at 4:45 PM 11/21/2007

Schister66

The shop that built him a new manifold/dp/dump should have paid to have the manifold rewelded at most...nothing beyond that is their fault. Sad to say, but your buddy made the gamble on XS Power and lost...

Jay_Sensing

I don't see a fault anywhere that the shop or locash should pay for. It sucks for the kid who blew **** car up but as an employee of a shop, I can tell you that people pick there cars up and normally head straight out on the street and begin to beat the **** out of them. Some people have sense and a stock turbo motor can live forever. Others are idiots and can blow it up in 15 miles. Neither is the shops fault. There is no warranty expressed or implied in ANY aftermarket work like this. It's just the way it is.