2x0

I think you are setting yourself up for failure. Your goals and budget do not compute.

1.) You want to buy a chassis. If you get it for cheap, then you are looking at a need to perform all regular maintenance for a 20+ year old vehicle, plus upgrade or replace suspension, brakes, bushings, ball joints, etc. etc. etc. to make the car reliable and safe before you even think about adding HP. So right there you will be in quite a ways, this stuff adds up.

2.) You want 300whp, which on a D series requires a built engine, or you will need a B swap. Again are in several $XXXX here.

3.) Finally, the turbo setup, which for your skill level I would say GoAutoworks is your best bet. You saw the links above so you know the cost there.

Adding all this together, you are at $10K absolute minimum, probably closer to $15K after considering clutch, injectors, Hondata, fuel pump, gauges a professional tune and all the other little extras. Yet you say you can only spend $4-5K

Set a more realistic goal for your budget, or a more realistic budget for your goal. Otherwise, you'll end up with one of the many half-assed POS turbo civics for sale on Craigslist that "just needs a tune".

Maybe you could piece together a cheap turbo kit on a stock D series, make around 200whp and then build the engine and turn it up later on

DaX

iTrader: (1)

Make sure you include room in your budget for tools. You will inevitably find out you need this tool or that tool that you don't already have, and you will need to buy along the way. Maybe I'll list out costs in my build thread to give folks a real-world view of what this takes.

J Dog

This is precisely why I'm here so you guys can tell me if I'm being retarded or not. I honestly hadn't thought about standard maintenance issues on the actual car itself but was going for more 4k-5k for basically only engine which I now am realizing is a pipe dream. That's no worries thoough, better to get a full understanding now before the build rather than in the middle of it. I do appreciate your honestly so I don't screw myself in the end.

Honestly that's not a bad idea to start smaller and then turn up down the road with more parts. Guess I thought 300whp when watching all these guys B.S. on YouTube was conservative. Guess NOT! Haha but lesson learned. I think I will adjust my first time goals closer to around 200ish whp to start.

I honestly have seen many builds on various platforms through the years but rarely if any of an actual build cost so I had basically no understunderstanding of a true cost. Well you done taught me today. Lol

Last question what kind of a cost difference could I expect in the 250whp-300whp from a D series to B series. From various threads I've read online a B series is much more expensive but also you guys have said they are easier to make those power numbers so maybe the cost could offset
I was thinking of tool cost just not in the actual build budget because I know I will use them again so I just think of it basically as a life/automotive investment.

J Dog

I wasn't going for unrealistic expectations, i just had an unrealistic thought process from other things I've seen without the knowledge of true cost. Now that I have a better understanding I'm prepared to work accordingly to my ultimate goal it'll just take longer now which is ok. Lol

Edit: I have been all over the Turbo section of the forum and everything reading the new guy stuff and watching videos so I don't sound so dumb going forward. I'm a quick learner and won't keep assuming anything that doesn't make sense. Lol

DaX

iTrader: (1)

I just updated the first post in my build thread with detailed price breakdowns - looking like about $6,500 for Phase 1 of my build.

J Dog

awesome I'll go check it out now.

extremeracer

The Dseries vs B-series equation is quite simple;

D-series:
> Comes in chassis already (no fitment modification needed)
> Cheaper to source parts, engines, transmissions etc
> Requires a built engine for 300whp (YCP Vitara pistons and Skunk/Eagle rods at minimum)

B-series:
> Engine and transmission swap required
> Need to modify 1x chassis-side engine mount in some instances
> Parts are more expensive
> Can make 300whp on stock internals
> More room to grow
> Greater high performance parts availability

If you all new to this platform and learning as you go, I'd recommend sourcing a good low mileage base car, refreshing the mechanicals on that, doing a B-series VTEC (B16A, B18C1, B18C5) engine swap properly first (if a D series car), get the car running properly in Normally Aspirated form and then only move on to Turbocharging it at a later stage. This way you'll have more time to A) accumulate funds and B) learn more about the Honda platform, the do's and the don'ts. Don't spend unnecessary money on things like big cams, headers, etc in NA form though as you won't use these when switching over to turbo.

J Dog

thank you for the info I appreciate it.

Balor_Gr

If youre not sure about WHP target start by calculating power per weight ratio. Get the number from some fast cars you want to be as fast or faster.
Its a good starting point. Mind manufacturer power is on the crank not wheel horse power.
After that if your target is until 400 whp max or around 450 HP id say go for a good D16Z6 engine with vitara / "custom length rods" 440$ combo.
If youre visualizing above 400whp+ or 500 HP well B series platform is better.

Im saying that because if your just want a civic with a power per weight ratio of a lets say an F430, then Yes 350whp is all that you need and D series IS a better candidate.
Just remember to go with the Z6 not Y8 engine if you go B.
In my stubborn opinion B series horsepower targets in 2018 = sleeving. And that blows everything budget related out of the window.

DaX

iTrader: (1)

I will chime in that initially I was looking at a Vitara / Skunk2 piston/rod combo, but the low compression ratio, even with custom rods (down in the 8's) turned me off. For just a few hundred more dollars, I could get forged pistons in 9.0 or 10.5:1 compression range. One of the major factors in my decision was that I knew this was going to be a staged build for me, and I was going to have to drive around NA for some undefined amount of time before adding the turbo, and wasn't sure I wanted to do that with a low compression ratio. Honestly, I may be wishing I'd have ordered the 10.5:1 pistons instead of the 9.0:1 pistons, but what's done is done.

Txdragon

my initial build was 10.5:1 really close to it, like, 10.4 in reality.. it was fun but I had to be easy with the boost and conservative with the timing. With that 1.5 point drop, you've got more room to play. With that, I **should** be able to eek out at least 20 more ponies on the safe side and an additional 40 with a nudge against the envelope. Don't sweat the 9.0 compression at all! Stock Z6 compression is 9.2:1 anyways.

2x0

All is good here in theory, but just matching HP to weight ratio of another car will not make you "as fast or faster".

1.) Most performance car platforms are at least RWD, so in a FWD Honda you will be slower and need extra HP to make up for that so you can back-half them or maybe will win a high speed roll race.

2.) Most performance cars have a higher torque to HP ratio than a turbo Honda will make. So again, unless you are in a high speed roll race, you will need extra HP to make up the difference, or instead focus on torque to weight ratio.

J Dog

I already have an end goal in my mind and that is 300whp or more but I know for sure I will be immensely happy with around 300whp for a every day street car.

I started looking into it as I will fully build with turbo before I change anything. This won't be a daily until its completed so I'm not worried about driving around NA for a while with it because I won't be changing anything. I'll focus on the actual chassis before actually swapping in any parts and once I get the parts I'll yank the engine and it will stay out until completion.

My endgame goal won't be a race car. I would go a totally different route if that was my goal. I want something with a lot of ***** for spirited city driving and some fun highway or back road pulls here and there and that will make me very happy.

Txdragon

Just what I did! The grocery getter with *****! Power when you wanna pass those soccer moms on the road, beat the dude coming down the lane to take that last parking spot at the market, or show that Camaro SS on the highway that a 4-banger is no laughing matter.

AZ_CIVIC

iTrader: (1)

Don't be scared, this process is stupid easy and 300whp is nothing today. Like I said before you can literally buy a stock GSR motor, buy a little turbo kit with the extras you need, find a good tuner and be done.

Here is what I would do if I were you.

• Decide what chassis you want first: Me I have a 2000 Civic Coupe. I've had a CRX, 91 hatchback, 93 EG coupe, 96 Civic Hatchback, 2000 Civic SI and 2000 Civic HX and 96 Integra and 2000 Civic Sedan. So I have tried all the flavors, personally I like the 96-00 Civic Coupe the best.
• Once you decide on a chassis you like try and find one with a GSR swap, if you can't, buy the chassis you want and get a good swap installed.
• If that kills your budget at least you will have the chassis with a good swap, start saving more money and once you have saved, start working on the next step. This is a good idea because instead of having a car collecting dust and seeing parts laying everywhere you don't really lose the motivation. If you have a chassis you like, a good motor swap that runs you at least have a good base that you can drive everyday if you want.
• Not all but a lot of people start losing motivation when you have a chassis sitting in the garage with no engine, a bare block sitting on the ground, the head is somewhere in a box and you have 25% of parts collecting dust in your room. After awhile you see that parting out thread happen.

turboLScrx

AZ_CIVIC

iTrader: (1)

Thanks man! I understand low budgets, I was once there myself. I started out the exact same way as what I described, the first car I bought was a 90 Honda CRX in 1998 when I was 16. It took me almost 2 years to get enough money saved up to buy my first b16 swap with my little 50 shot of NOS. It was a great start and as I wanted more I saved until I was ready to go but I at least had a running car to drive, well back in those days my car was the only means of transportation LOL.

Txdragon

it's all in the evolution of thinking. When WE were young, sure, we took all the time we needed to get what we wanted. Nowadays it's different. "Budget" means "I'm broke and want to get ______ done with what money I have now, and have xxx amount put away to do so". Lol! "Budget" gets misunderstood, but it is subjective so, it figures.
The B vs D game is a whole other debate. Also subjective; it's a matter of personal preference really.

J Dog

For my first build after much talking and searching I'm pretty positive I am actually going to go with the D16Z6 and look for the platform that already has it whether it be the Civic EX or the Hatch SI (preferable) and get a second engine to build and completely refresh to a certain point in the garage as i freshen up the rest of the chassis mechanically so when I throw boost at it then I won't be on shot suspension or anything of the such. While the B series is certainly alluring due to the additional capabilities of the motor I know I won't be taking this build that high. This is going to be a learning teaching build and in roughly 2-3 years (much more financial freedom will come with life via degrees and whatnot and new jobs, wife is in the RN program now so it's just basically my income for now) then that's when I plan to fully build a monster at that point where I will go all out. Now of course that's not to say once purchase time actually arrives next year I may find a deal with a swap or whatever that I can't pass up and I certainly always try to make the best decision I can with the options I have available.

I super appreciate all of you guys taking the time to reply to me and increase my knowledge base. I feel like I'm already tons ahead in knowledge as I was even 3 days ago so this forum and you guys have already been absolutely indispensible to me.

AZ_CIVIC

iTrader: (1)

Really? That is the absolute opposite of how it was when I was young. Back when I was young I had one car only which meant I couldn't afford to have my car apart or down for more than a day LOL. Being young also typically means you're broke and have to save money if you want something not because your budget is too small but because you really don't have a budget. Also budget has lots of meanings, I have a budget but that doesn't mean I'm broke, it just means that my budget does not include a billet aluminum block LOL.

Now a days I have way more patience than when I was younger. I can have my car down for a year as I plan for the next thing because its a race car that I don't rely on. It also means that I can be patient to purchase the right quality part and not buy something cheap that will break just because.

One thing I see with people especially here is real goals. I see people create build threads and after two years have sold, rebought sold want to go faster but have no real concepts. I've seen people on here say they want a 9 second car or 8 second car so they are selling their Honda and going V8 as if it will be some easy challenge to build some 8 second V8.

I have no problem with any platform someone chooses to use, I don't care if someone likes a D vs B or K or H or J or whatever. Simply put a D will not out perform a B hands down no arguments no what ifs LOL. Yet if someone uses a D for their build that is great, if they have fun and do well I am all for that.

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

Best words spoken on this thread

Autoworks

...just wanted to quote that as I agree with all 4 points.
-Budget is very subjective, we all build on a "budget"
-You gain patience as you age (from my experience dealing in this indust., the "older" customers/clients are much more "pleasant" in the process)
-Say it all the time, set a "realistic" goal for yourself/don't get scewed by the internet...it'll blow your budget
-100%

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

Hi, I'm The Shodan, and I approve of this message.....

J Dog

Question about the clutch. After doing research I'm looking at comp clutch and ACT. Looking at the specs I'm thinking stage 4. Any insight on if either brand is better than the other for the money or if I should check any other brands that are good but cheaper for most likely less than 300ft/lbs of torque.

Sprung vs unsprung. It seems that sprung is the way to go for a DD but also can potentially last a lot less long. Any insight to this statement? I plan on a tranny refresh at some point and would like what I do to last as long as possible.

Also looking at the ACT streetlite flywheel around 12lbs. Only one I've come across so far. Any less expensive brands to look into that compare? Is that a good weight for a TI Z6?

hoping for insight on a turbo. Wanting to make it to between 300whp-350whp max. Don't need room to grow on this build. I'm thinking 50 trim t3/t4 but the other numbers are still really confusing to me. I get what they mean just not how to use them effectively in a decision that's good. Want quick spooling and good midrange power as this will be a street driver. Maybe a track day once in a blue moon but not really of concern when making decisions for the build.

DaX

iTrader: (1)

I don't have any personal experience between sprung and unsprung, but I believe sprung is a little more DD friendly, like you said. One thing to note is that (for Competition Clutch, at least), the rating for the clutch is for torque OVER stock. A stock Z6 makes 106 ft-lb of torque, so a clutch that is rated for 250% over stock, would be rated for 371 ft-lb of torque, or (1 + 2.5) x 106. It's probably overkill, but I went with the CC Stage 4...Stage 3 probably would have worked. I don't have any input on flywheel - I'm staying stock there.

Surely someone (TheShodan?) will chime in on turbo choice. I'm going to go with the Turbonetics TNX 20/60 from Go-Autoworks. My goals are similar, and I was told it should have great response and still be able to move enough air to meet my goal.