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B16A2 Top-Mount Darton turbo setup: Does "Twin Scroll" help in this case here?

B16A2 Top-Mount Darton turbo setup: Does "Twin Scroll" help in this case here?

 
Old 12-19-2018, 09:06 PM
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Default B16A2 Top-Mount Darton turbo setup: Does "Twin Scroll" help in this case here?

B16A2 84mm bore
Darton sleeve
Je turbo pistons
Crower rods
(block built to withstand 40psi)
B16a2 head
Three way angle grind
Skunk2 valves
Springs
Retainers
Skunk2 stage 3 Turbo cams
70mm dh racing throttle body
Pro series intake (honed out to 70 mm)
​​​​​​​3" intercooler piping
23x12x3 intercooler core fmic
Twin disc action clutch
Go auto top mount twin scroll exhaust manifold
Twin tial 38mm wastegates
Hks sequential bov


I wanted to throw myself in front of the tech, and ask the question before I'm already waiting on a bunch of parts that will leave me lagging.
​​​​​I'm hearing that if you match the correct twin scroll manifold and turbo for your application, you may be able to move up a size.
I'm seeing some say that a (I have a 1.97L) 2 liter can push a gt3582r in the low 4000's(rpm).? I am looking at the gt3082r, (we r still talking twin scroll) but I'm wondering if I can get away with the gt3582r twin scroll since the flow is better going twin scroll.?
Can the scroll heads chime in and offer their experience and knowledge on my questions?
P. S. The turbos I'm referring to are garrett,
Oh ya, no fighting and stuff...

​​​​
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Old 12-20-2018, 06:46 AM
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Default re: B16A2 Top-Mount Darton turbo setup: Does

Originally Posted by Jacyp7719 View Post
B16A2 84mm bore
Darton sleeve
Je turbo pistons
Crower rods
(block built to withstand 40psi)
B16a2 head
Three way angle grind
Skunk2 valves
Springs
Retainers
Skunk2 stage 3 Turbo cams
70mm dh racing throttle body
Pro series intake (honed out to 70 mm)
​​​​​​​3" intercooler piping -Why? No additional response by doing this and is only used for 750whp setups and larger
23x12x3 intercooler core fmic
Twin disc action clutch
Go auto top mount Divided Housing exhaust manifold - Wrong type of exhaust manifold if responsiveness is the key factor here.
Twin tial 38mm wastegates
Hks sequential bov -The RACE version of this BOV is what is needed here. The standard BOV just doesn't relieve enough pressure based upon the turbocharger and use you're looking for from your setup.


I wanted to throw myself in front of the tech, and ask the question before I'm already waiting on a bunch of parts that will leave me lagging.
​​​​​I'm hearing that if you match the correct twin scroll manifold and turbo for your application, you may be able to move up a size.
I'm seeing some say that a (I have a 1.97L) 2 liter can push a gt3582r in the low 4000's(rpm).? I am looking at the gt3082r, (we r still talking twin scroll) but I'm wondering if I can get away with the gt3582r twin scroll since the flow is better going twin scroll.?
Can the scroll heads chime in and offer their experience and knowledge on my questions?
P. S. The turbos I'm referring to are garrett,
Oh ya, no fighting and stuff...

​​​​
Well, no. Unfortunately, not only is the GT3082R an old turbo that was never that good (it tried to perform the best of two worlds, and did the worst of both, regardless of turbine setup), but trying to get a 1.9 litre to maximize boost pressure under 20psi by 4000rpms is not going to happen, whether you have a NI-resist turbine housing that is twin scroll or not. Exhaust pulse energy from that size just won't perform that. Generally speaking, the benefits of a twin scroll turbine housing are limited to smaller fraimed turbochargers under 45lbs/min and do not display the same behaviours as a variable vein turbo or an actuated veind turbine.While it does not cause any problems or harm to run a divided inlet turbine housing on a manifold that is an "open" design, none of the benefits of the twin inlet will be seen.Your power goals need to determine the size of the turbocharger and whether or not any twin scroll system is right for you. Yes, the exhaust manifold design is key, but again, in general, power , torque and purpose take precedent over whether or not to use twin scroll turbine housing or not.

Also, as of now there is no such item as a "Stage 3 Turbo camshaft" from Skunk2 for a B-series. Please be more precise of the equipment you're using to help us.....help you..
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Old 12-21-2018, 10:25 PM
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Default Re: B16A2 Top-Mount Darton turbo setup: Does

Originally Posted by TheShodan View Post
Well, no. Unfortunately, not only is the GT3082R an old turbo that was never that good (it tried to perform the best of two worlds, and did the worst of both, regardless of turbine setup), but trying to get a 1.9 litre to maximize boost pressure under 20psi by 4000rpms is not going to happen, whether you have a NI-resist turbine housing that is twin scroll or not. Exhaust pulse energy from that size just won't perform that. Generally speaking, the benefits of a twin scroll turbine housing are limited to smaller fraimed turbochargers under 45lbs/min and do not display the same behaviours as a variable vein turbo or an actuated veind turbine.While it does not cause any problems or harm to run a divided inlet turbine housing on a manifold that is an "open" design, none of the benefits of the twin inlet will be seen.Your power goals need to determine the size of the turbocharger and whether or not any twin scroll system is right for you. Yes, the exhaust manifold design is key, but again, in general, power , torque and purpose take precedent over whether or not to use twin scroll turbine housing or not.

Also, as of now there is no such item as a "Stage 3 Turbo camshaft" from Skunk2 for a B-series. Please be more precise of the equipment you're using to help us.....help you..
Wonderful feedback, Information is king. After more reading and punching information into engine air amount calculator to get a cfm and pressure ratio (https://www.boosttown.com/forced_induction/air_amount_calculator.php)
I went to gt3582r gen2 super core map and am hitting the center of the eye. With information at hand on divided twin scroll technology freeing up flow and scavenging. The twin scroll sounds like the way to go.

I'm hoping to get some notable experience info from a member than has ran this perticular turbo in regards to a like set up that can share?

yes, I also looked up my cams on Skunk2's website and did not see them there any more. I purchased them many years ago. not sure if they simplified things since then(must have).

I appreciate the opportunity to boost on this information highway🤙
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Old 12-22-2018, 02:26 AM
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Default Re: B16A2 Top-Mount Darton turbo setup: Does "Twin Scroll" help in this case here?

Twin scroll will help from -10 psi to 1-2-3 psi After that its all even spool wise.You WILL have better on-off gas pedal response but dont expect wonders.
Divided setups were designed for that moment two exhaust cylinders are open at the same time and contaminating each other worse and worse on higher boost with a small OEM cast manifold.
It will work with a long manifold but the only reason i see is using BIG cams on medium frame turbo.
Also twin scroll reduces some turbine efficiency so you most of the times need either a big turbine housing or big turbine wheel.
GTX3576 is better for a twin scroll setup from a full GTX3582 imo.
Still for a twin scroll setup BW efr is the key player. Id buy 8374 with he .92 t4 internal wastegate housing and go with the car on a fabricator to make
the shortest possible manifold without focus on equal length since each "scroll" gasses hits a different point on the turbine wheel and that creates different
conditions anyway.
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Old 12-22-2018, 03:46 AM
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Default Re: B16A2 Top-Mount Darton turbo setup: Does "Twin Scroll" help in this case here?

How much power do you want to make? Is this a street car? Track car? Drag car?
What FMIC are you using?
What fuel are you using?
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Old 12-22-2018, 06:18 AM
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Default Re: B16A2 Top-Mount Darton turbo setup: Does "Twin Scroll" help in this case here?

Originally Posted by Balor_Gr View Post
Twin scroll will help from -10 psi to 1-2-3 psi After that its all even spool wise.You WILL have better on-off gas pedal response but dont expect wonders.
Divided setups were designed for that moment two exhaust cylinders are open at the same time and contaminating each other worse and worse on higher boost with a small OEM cast manifold.
It will work with a long manifold but the only reason i see is using BIG cams on medium frame turbo.
Also twin scroll reduces some turbine efficiency so you most of the times need either a big turbine housing or big turbine wheel.
GTX3576 is better for a twin scroll setup from a full GTX3582 imo.
Still for a twin scroll setup BW efr is the key player. Id buy 8374 with he .92 t4 internal wastegate housing and go with the car on a fabricator to make
the shortest possible manifold without focus on equal length since each "scroll" gasses hits a different point on the turbine wheel and that creates different
conditions anyway.
Definitely some info to chew on.
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Old 12-22-2018, 09:58 AM
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Default Re: B16A2 Top-Mount Darton turbo setup: Does "Twin Scroll" help in this case here?

Originally Posted by Autoworks View Post
How much power do you want to make? Is this a street car? Track car? Drag car?
What FMIC are you using?
What fuel are you using?
Power - as much as it will take.
For use - fun (whatever I can throw at it) (the kitchen sink)
Fmic - bar and plate 3" inlet & outlet,(original Fmic i had no background on) talking to Greg at goautoworks for replacement

Last edited by Jacyp7719; 12-22-2018 at 12:12 PM.
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Old 12-22-2018, 12:43 PM
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Default Re: B16A2 Top-Mount Darton turbo setup: Does

Originally Posted by TheShodan View Post
Yes, the exhaust manifold design is key, but again, in general, power , torque and purpose take precedent over whether or not to use twin scroll turbine housing or not..
Thank you TheShodan, I'm not seeing any information on the web on twin scroll technology under large boost or higher rpm ranges vs single. I believe if we can get some scroll heads to chime in and comment, (about their true experience) this platform would be the first to pop up on Google.
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Old 12-22-2018, 01:22 PM
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Default Re: B16A2 Top-Mount Darton turbo setup: Does

Originally Posted by TheShodan View Post
Generally speaking, the benefits of a twin scroll turbine housing are limited to smaller fraimed turbochargers under 45lbs/min and do not display the same behaviours as a variable vein turbo or an actuated veind turbine.
Is there a vnt, or vgt, that you could recommend? I'm not seeing a lot of info on the web for comparison purposes?
Variable vein recommendations are welcomed.

Last edited by Jacyp7719; 12-22-2018 at 02:15 PM.
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Old 12-22-2018, 02:53 PM
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Default Re: B16A2 Top-Mount Darton turbo setup: Does

Originally Posted by Jacyp7719 View Post
Is there a vnt, or vgt, that you could recommend? I'm not seeing a lot of info on the web for comparison purposes?
Variable vein recommendations are welcomed.
Again, not for that budget. Those options were restricted to OEM factory applications, that even had management specialty designed to work with that system. You're looking at thousands of dollars just for the turbo alone.

So no. You won't see any web information. Complete impractical.
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Old 12-22-2018, 03:31 PM
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Default Re: B16A2 Top-Mount Darton turbo setup: Does

Originally Posted by TheShodan View Post

So no. You won't see any web information. Complete impractical.
Any opposition to divided exhaust manifold to divided turbo exhaust housing?

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Old 12-22-2018, 03:35 PM
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Default Re: B16A2 Top-Mount Darton turbo setup: Does "Twin Scroll" help in this case here?

This new variable twin scroll turbo being developed would be nice when available in a racing application for a 4 cylinder engine.


Last edited by TheShodan; 12-22-2018 at 03:52 PM.
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Old 12-22-2018, 04:00 PM
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Default Re: B16A2 Top-Mount Darton turbo setup: Does "Twin Scroll" help in this case here?

Originally Posted by Jacyp7719 View Post
This new variable twin scroll turbo being developed would be nice when available in a racing application for a 4 cylinder engine.

https://youtu.be/J06nj5-B_AE
Yes. This was a development 3 years ago via BorgWarner. It never took off very well due to parts costs and issues with testing.

At an average of about $4100 per unit, without any additional equipment, was a bit too steep for most demographic markets that were intending to use this..

So, yeah....there's that
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Old 12-22-2018, 04:02 PM
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Default Re: B16A2 Top-Mount Darton turbo setup: Does

Originally Posted by Jacyp7719 View Post
Any opposition to divided exhaust manifold to divided turbo exhaust housing?
Umm, not to sound rude, but... How much actual research & understanding have you gathered regarding turbochargers in general? And what were those sources of information?
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Old 12-22-2018, 04:06 PM
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Default Re: B16A2 Top-Mount Darton turbo setup: Does

Originally Posted by Jacyp7719 View Post
Thank you TheShodan, I'm not seeing any information on the web on twin scroll technology under large boost or higher rpm ranges vs single. I believe if we can get some scroll heads to chime in and comment, (about their true experience) this platform would be the first to pop up on Google.
YOU ARE ALEADY TALKING TO AT LEAST 2 "Scroll-heads" currently regarding Honda specfically and turbocharging in general, sir
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Old 12-22-2018, 04:55 PM
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Default Re: B16A2 Top-Mount Darton turbo setup: Does

Originally Posted by TheShodan View Post
Umm, not to sound rude, but... How much actual research & understanding have you gathered regarding turbochargers in general? And what were those sources of information?
Really, this is a great question. Most information is vague and or does not present the unit in extreme conditions.
It would be very helpful to receive any feedback on gt3582r gen 2 super core turbo owners with a similar setup, divided turbo housing with divided exhaust manifold design, versus non divided design.
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Old 12-22-2018, 05:14 PM
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Default Re: B16A2 Top-Mount Darton turbo setup: Does

Originally Posted by Jacyp7719 View Post
Really, this is a great question. Most information is vague and or does not present the unit in extreme conditions.
It would be very helpful to receive any feedback on gt3582r gen 2 super core turbo owners with a similar setup, divided turbo housing with divided exhaust manifold design, versus non divided design.
Jacyp - you've already been talking to THE MAN (#1 scroll head) regarding turbos and Hondas. Plus, the forum ain't what it used to be 15 years ago...you're not going to get responses from 20+ guys who have run that setup.
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Old 12-22-2018, 05:50 PM
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Default Re: B16A2 Top-Mount Darton turbo setup: Does

Originally Posted by DaX View Post
Jacyp - you've already been talking to THE MAN (#1 scroll head) regarding turbos and Hondas.
Wonderful! Thank you for your time.
So if I'm following the thread correctly,
Don't use a gt3082r, go hks race bov, (were you liking the idea of using a gt3582r gen 2 super core?)
I should stay away from twin scroll if I'm thinking about
A turbo that size. (go single scroll/open flange)

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Old 12-22-2018, 10:39 PM
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Default Re: B16A2 Top-Mount Darton turbo setup: Does "Twin Scroll" help in this case here?

Here's a comparison I found
(scroll down to section called "the test" on this link)

Twin Scroll vs. Single Scroll Turbo Test - DSPORT Magazine
https://www.dsportmag.com/the-tech/twin-scroll-vs-single-scroll-turbo-test-the-great-divide/
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Old 12-23-2018, 05:29 AM
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Default Re: B16A2 Top-Mount Darton turbo setup: Does "Twin Scroll" help in this case here?

Originally Posted by Jacyp7719 View Post
Here's a comparison I found
(scroll down to section called "the test" on this link)

Twin Scroll vs. Single Scroll Turbo Test - DSPORT Magazine
https://www.dsportmag.com/the-tech/t...-great-divide/
Ill tell you this and keep it as is.
Twin scroll is better on lap times and funner on the street.
Full throttle shift on max rpm on drag straight line racing is even, maybe even better on single scroll if your have a SUPER high VE setup with a 80 - 100 lb/min turbo on a top mount manifold with all maxed on cams intake mani etc.

Dont overthink it because you cannot cheat the nature.
Efr is giving GREAT results here but everyone is AWD and they NEED it. And im not very sure that great results are not because of the super light turbine wheels they pack and not because of the twin scroll setups. Im a huge fan of "twin scroll" but it has to be designed correct and not with a top mount mani.

You want to create the problem first( short manifold / high boost / crosss cylinder contamination//small turbo - big cams) to then solve it (divided setup)
And no. Top mount LONG manifolds with twin scroll is bro science. Because THEN you have the potencial to use the collector to actually do its job and scavenge and your F'ing it up by separating the exhaust gasses with twin scroll.

Last edited by Balor_Gr; 12-23-2018 at 01:17 PM.
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Old 12-23-2018, 10:39 AM
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Default Re: B16A2 Top-Mount Darton turbo setup: Does "Twin Scroll" help in this case here?

Originally Posted by Balor_Gr View Post
Ill tell you this and keep it as is.
Twin scroll is better on lap times and funner on the street..
In certain sizes and in some uses. Sorry. I love ya like a step-cousin, I can't just let a blanket statement like that slide. Because it's simply not always the case. If you don't add that part in, Balo_Gr, I don't care how you slice it., you're giving misinformation to someone who does not know the full facts about the way it works. The OP isn't using the terminology properly yet, much less understand the full concept of twin scroll use. Please, just be complete in giving the full story; not just the "sexy" parts.

Everything else, I completely co-sign.
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Old 12-23-2018, 01:16 PM
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Default Re: B16A2 Top-Mount Darton turbo setup: Does "Twin Scroll" help in this case here?

I know thats why i told him this
Twin scroll will help from -10 psi to 1-2-3 psi After that its all even spool wise.You WILL have better on-off gas pedal response but dont expect wonders.
Some posts ago
My car for example with the biggest unorthodox divided manifold with a turbo sized between gt2860 and gt2871 is killer at ON OFF everyonw who drove it could not believe this response.
Still i suspect i would hit full boost at almost the same rpm on the same turbo on open scroll but the on/off "now im full thrtottle - now im not" 1 psi at 2000 rpm is wow.
The bad part is it takes a long of time to go from 1 psi to full boost on twin scroll compared to the single scroll setups.But thats it you cant cheat nature
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Old 12-23-2018, 04:19 PM
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Default Re: B16A2 Top-Mount Darton turbo setup: Does "Twin Scroll" help in this case here?

Originally Posted by Balor_Gr View Post
your F'ing it up by separating the exhaust gasses with twin scroll.
I appreciate everyone's Input,
from the information I'm reading on twin scroll, the separation of cylinder firing sequence must be directed to separate ports in order to correct pressure during overlap.

I'm totally not disagreeing with anyone as I'm not seeing enough information from first hand users on the product.
Is it because the cost to purchase the correct setup is to much to take the leap? Is it just bad technology?
If it is bad technology, why would the option be there not only from the manufacturer that is creating an option, (maybe for a consumer that doesn't want to go fast?) but if this is so, we still see twin scroll design being available, made and sold, by goautoworks, sheepy and more as a proformance, and or race upgrade.

Beyond that, can you guys tell me what direction you would go with my setup if it were u for
turbo size & housings(Garrett)
Exhaust manifold design (goautoworks),
core size Fmic (goautoworks), clutch (action clutch).

Thank you for your time.

​​
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Old 12-24-2018, 12:44 AM
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Default Re: B16A2 Top-Mount Darton turbo setup: Does "Twin Scroll" help in this case here?

Thats 84x77 engine right?
Whats your hp target?
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Old 12-24-2018, 04:49 AM
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Default Re: B16A2 Top-Mount Darton turbo setup: Does "Twin Scroll" help in this case here?

Originally Posted by Jacyp7719 View Post
I appreciate everyone's Input,
from the information I'm reading on twin scroll, the separation of cylinder firing sequence must be directed to separate ports in order to correct pressure during overlap.

I'm totally not disagreeing with anyone as I'm not seeing enough information from first hand users on the product.
Is it because the cost to purchase the correct setup is to much to take the leap? Is it just bad technology?
If it is bad technology, why would the option be there not only from the manufacturer that is creating an option, (maybe for a consumer that doesn't want to go fast?) but if this is so, we still see twin scroll design being available, made and sold, by goautoworks, sheepy and more as a proformance, and or race upgrade.

Beyond that, can you guys tell me what direction you would go with my setup if it were u for
turbo size & housings(Garrett)
Exhaust manifold design (goautoworks),
core size Fmic (goautoworks), clutch (action clutch).

Thank you for your time.

​​
Yes, a divided manifold setup is going to pair the firing cylinders.
It isn't bad technology, it's more so application specific where costs and available options all come into play. It's GREAT in the right/certain scenarios and complete "overkill" in others.

Turbo sizing is going to really depend on your end power goal and usage.
Exhaust manifold design will also depend heavily on usage/purpose paired w/ the turbo.
Core "size"...one that will effectively cover the power you want to make. There's more to it than just size, but that's a different topic for a different day.
In short, you want to tie it all together to work effectively as one unit; as it is just one big pump when it's all said and done. that's typically where complete "kits" come into play.

Originally Posted by Balor_Gr View Post
Whats your hp target?
That was one of my first questions here. A realistic goal/# will be a better dictator of turbo choice than just selecting open or divided housing.
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