B16 turbo - Delete thermostat?

 
Old 04-17-2014, 04:32 AM
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Default B16 turbo - Delete thermostat?

Hey guys.

I have a b16a2 with a water-fed Apexi ball bearing turbo kit.
I'm always worried that the coolant in the turbo will heat too much and damage the turbo before the thermostat opens.
Am i just being paranoid or is it a good idea to remove the thermostat?

I'm only using the car for some drag racing and a couple of track days a year.
I've removed the heater matrix also

What do you think?
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Old 04-17-2014, 04:44 AM
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Default Re: B16 turbo - Delete thermostat?

use the thermostat.
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Old 04-17-2014, 05:00 AM
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Default Re: B16 turbo - Delete thermostat?

Never delete the thermostat or put on in for lower operating temp. And ALWAYS run an oem thermostat ALWAYS !!! Also do not block off any water Ports on the head or coolant tube or coolant neck. You can bypass the heater core only. This will ensure proper coolant flow through the engine when the thermostat is closed.
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Old 04-17-2014, 06:05 AM
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Default Re: B16 turbo - Delete thermostat?

Gut the stock T-stat so that you have some restriction to keep the coolant in the radiator long enough to do its job but no chance of failure.

My T-stat stuck shut on the dyno!!! Never again...
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Old 04-17-2014, 01:57 PM
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Default Re: B16 turbo - Delete thermostat?

Originally Posted by Dark_Teg View Post
Gut the stock T-stat so that you have some restriction to keep the coolant in the radiator long enough to do its job but no chance of failure.

My T-stat stuck shut on the dyno!!! Never again...

This is not good advice! The old myth of needing restriction has long been proven false. Like mentioned previously, use an oem thermostat and plumb the cooling system properly. The coolant in the turbo will not overheat before the thermostat opens.
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Old 04-17-2014, 07:15 PM
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Default Re: B16 turbo - Delete thermostat?

T Stat needed.
I ran without one (had just got the car) well the coolant is always moving from the rad to the motor and it doesn't have a chance to cool off.
Your even up over heating.

And i ran a water cool turbo after putting in the tstat and everything was fine. No need to worry.
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Old 04-17-2014, 07:32 PM
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Default Re: B16 turbo - Delete thermostat?

Originally Posted by xile6 View Post
T Stat needed.
I ran without one (had just got the car) well the coolant is always moving from the rad to the motor and it doesn't have a chance to cool off.
Your even up over heating.

And i ran a water cool turbo after putting in the tstat and everything was fine. No need to worry.

Its seems there are some in this thread that needs some knowledge about how cooling systems work!

Please read the following to better understand these things and not spread nonsense myths

http://stewartcomponents.com/index.p...ormation_id=14
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Old 04-17-2014, 07:36 PM
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Default Re: B16 turbo - Delete thermostat?

Your concern is unfounded. Run the tstat and don't lose any sleep over it.
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Old 04-17-2014, 07:45 PM
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Default Re: B16 turbo - Delete thermostat?

Originally Posted by Runnerdown View Post
Its seems there are some in this thread that needs some knowledge about how cooling systems work!

Please read the following to better understand these things and not spread nonsense myths

http://stewartcomponents.com/index.p...ormation_id=14
I know how a coolant system works. With a gutted t-stat I know I won't drive 5 hours for a dyno tune and have it stick shut or keep me from making rounds at the track. If you like running a t-stat go for it. Some of us have our reasons.
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Old 04-17-2014, 07:51 PM
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Default Re: B16 turbo - Delete thermostat?

If your primary reason is to avoid the possibility of it sticking, thats fine.. whatever floats your boat. Point is that the the "radiator dwell time" theory does not hold water, physics does.
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Old 04-18-2014, 03:04 AM
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Default Re: B16 turbo - Delete thermostat?

You let your motor warm up before you race the car right? If you do, then the thermostat would already be open right? I say leave the thermostat in, I don't think you need to worry the turbo.
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Old 04-18-2014, 03:36 AM
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Default

The thermostat doesnt stay open 100%. It constantly opening and closing to regulate the engine temperature. If you took it out it would take forever to warm up the engine cause the coolant would be constantly cooled in the rad vs the coolant only flowing through the rad when its hot.

Trust me. I had am engine with no tstat. ****** took ages to warm up
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Old 04-18-2014, 04:18 AM
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Default Re: B16 turbo - Delete thermostat?

Don't do it. you won't have issues with overheating, it will actually be quite the opposite.

coolant will move so quickly through the system that it would take forever for coolant temps to reach operational levels and driving down the road you'll actually see coolant temps go completely cold, especially if you have an efficient multi core radiator and a good fan.

at high rpms with no tstat you'll ultimately develop hot and cold spots within the motor, causing to some degree (on the extreme side) motor problems. if the sleeves don't heat up or do so unevenly you could very well end up destroying the cylinder walls, rings, or even break something from the piston and sleeve not expanding in a uniform fashion.

back when we had an AMA superbike team it turns out our engine builder wasn't putting a tstat in the motor... (honda Rc51 so technically it counts lol) and we kept locking up motors left and right. in one race we went through 3 motors and the last time it locked up the bike high sided and ripped itself apart.

when I tore the motors down and didn't see the tstat I immediately inspected the pistons and cylinder walls and you could clearly see where the piston and sleeve expanded unevenly. there was massive piston and cylinder scuff and it ultimately led to the piston seizing in the bore.

trust me, run a thermostat
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Old 04-18-2014, 04:23 AM
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Default Re: B16 turbo - Delete thermostat?

Originally Posted by m4xwellmurd3r View Post
The thermostat doesnt stay open 100%. It constantly opening and closing to regulate the engine temperature. If you took it out it would take forever to warm up the engine cause the coolant would be constantly cooled in the rad vs the coolant only flowing through the rad when its hot.

Trust me. I had am engine with no tstat. ****** took ages to warm up
Ding ding ding WINNAR! tell him what he's won Johnny lol.

you're exactly right. the tstat is constantly opening and closing in response to changes in coolant temps to keep the system at a constant temperature. with no stat you have something like 30 gallons per minute of coolant cycling full steam through the motor. it can actually cause the pump to cavitate and where the sleeves don't heat up evenly it can cause air bubbles in the system.

think of a thermostat like a wastegate. while the wastegate will maintain a certain boost level it has to constantly open and close to maintain steady pressure across the rpm range and load range of the motor.

like at high rpm, high load, the wastegate will have to open further to bypass enough exhaust gasses around the turbine wheel. thermostat is exactly the same way.
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Old 04-18-2014, 04:45 AM
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Default Re: B16 turbo - Delete thermostat?

Wantboost nailed it.

Oh and rip kt
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Old 04-18-2014, 07:08 AM
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Default Re: B16 turbo - Delete thermostat?

Originally Posted by Runnerdown View Post
Its seems there are some in this thread that needs some knowledge about how cooling systems work!

Please read the following to better understand these things and not spread nonsense myths

http://stewartcomponents.com/index.p...ormation_id=14
I know how the system works.
Also know that I drove for 1 hr in stop and go traffic. On a 90deg day and it over heated.
Had coolant. Not leaks and was na at the time.

A tstat is needed.
The coolant doesn't get a chance to cool off its one is not there.
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Old 04-18-2014, 01:00 PM
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Default Re: B16 turbo - Delete thermostat?

Originally Posted by xile6 View Post
I know how the system works.


A tstat is needed.
The coolant doesn't get a chance to cool off its one is not there.
But see, you don't get it. You have to understand the fundamentals of this. Flow being too fast through the radiator is false. There's another reason it causes problems without one but you have to put your thinking cap on. Think about how a pump works, what happens when you restrict one, and what coolant/water does when the pressure is increased.

People who say it runs cooler do not check the metal temperature. I agree, run a thermostat...but understand why and do not make false statements
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Old 04-18-2014, 06:57 PM
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Default Re: B16 turbo - Delete thermostat?

Originally Posted by 2000CTRSi View Post
Wantboost nailed it.

Oh and rip kt
I was so crushed when I found out yesterday. I haven't even heard exactly what happened either. all I know is something about a forklift and two of his friends. he was such a good kid ya know, definitely didn't have to leave us so soon
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Old 04-18-2014, 07:47 PM
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Default Re: B16 turbo - Delete thermostat?

Any to stat even lower temp works fine
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Old 04-18-2014, 11:21 PM
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Default Re: B16 turbo - Delete thermostat?

Originally Posted by Runnerdown View Post
But see, you don't get it. You have to understand the fundamentals of this. Flow being too fast through the radiator is false. There's another reason it causes problems without one but you have to put your thinking cap on. Think about how a pump works, what happens when you restrict one, and what coolant/water does when the pressure is increased.

People who say it runs cooler do not check the metal temperature. I agree, run a thermostat...but understand why and do not make false statements
Yea the system is under pressure also to raise blowing point.
But for the out point what people see and understand is.
The coolant doesn't get a chance to cool off without a tstat and you can overheat.
When mines over heated it was on the freeway which is where it would normally cool off the most.
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Old 04-19-2014, 12:39 AM
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Default Re: B16 turbo - Delete thermostat?

Ok here's the thing. I'm not trying to bust ***** or talk down to people but its time put the highly attached internet/auto parts store counter myths to rest.

-Removing a thermostat completely will cause the circulate freely which makes it difficult for the coolant to initially come up to temp. The coolant needs to come up to temp quickly to do several things:

-lower emissions
-get the engine to proper operating temperature
-expand and pressurize the system

When the thermostat is in place the water pump pressurizes the engine block and head, as temps rise the pressure increases and eventually the thermostat creeps open and from there will regulate its opening and closing as the temp changes. Pressure is maintained and the block and head act together as sort of a "manifold"

Now, without the thermostat the pressure in the block and head is very low, this will cause steam pockets to form in the hottest areas. When this happens you get all sorts of problems. Steam pockets can also restrict flow to critical areas. This is the reason people are having issues with removing t-stats. For a while they think the engine is running cold because the gauge is slow to move or never seems to come up like it should.

Now each engine configuration will respond to this type a little bit differently, there are a ton of factors to consider. But generally speaking this is not a good idea to go messing with a well designed Honda oem thermostat. If you need better cooling there are many ways to go about this that will keep the engine happy and in good working order.

Now for the bottom line: More water flow = Better cooling.
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Old 04-19-2014, 03:41 AM
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Default Re: B16 turbo - Delete thermostat?

Originally Posted by Runnerdown View Post
Now, without the thermostat the pressure in the block and head is very low, this will cause steam pockets to form in the hottest areas. When this happens you get all sorts of problems. Steam pockets can also restrict flow to critical areas. This is the reason people are having issues with removing t-stats. For a while they think the engine is running cold because the gauge is slow to move or never seems to come up like it should
thank you! so many people don't know about this issue.

because the cooling loop never comes up to pressure it's boiling point is just 212F, roughly. the combustion temperature is much higher than this as a lot of the heat is transmitted through the sleeve into the cooling jacket.

so now you've got very cold un-pressurized coolant moving very fast that's coming into contact with a very hot surface... possibly even superheated depending upon coolant flow around an area. this will cause a very rapidly expanding steam pocket to form in the cooling system.

air is a fairly poor conductor of heat, so anything this air bubble touches will heat up very fast and this bubble doesn't easily pop. it's more likely to get stuck somewhere in the cooling system than it is to make it to the radiator.

this air bubble can also interfere with monitoring temperatures and only when it pops or dissipates will you know something is wrong.
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Old 04-21-2014, 05:44 AM
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Default Re: B16 turbo - Delete thermostat?

Originally Posted by Runnerdown View Post
If your primary reason is to avoid the possibility of it sticking, thats fine.. whatever floats your boat. Point is that the the "radiator dwell time" theory does not hold water, physics does.
With a T-stat temps were fine till it stuck. With no t-stat the fan never shut off once it came on. Gutted T-stat, car warms up, fan comes on, car cools off, fan shuts off and repeat.

You can stick to physics all you want and I will do what works. A boosted EF with a half radiator in the Texas heat isnt ideal for sure.

Last edited by Dark_Teg; 04-21-2014 at 09:34 AM.
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