Sonny

Why don't we hear about B series engines "lifting" their heads?

To me, D series engines having this problems and B series engines NOT having this problem (the LS and GS-R/ITR engines) makes no sense from a physics point of view.

Discuss...

Sonny

SOHC_MShue

they have thicker headbolts for one thing.

Sonny

But they are distributing their load over a much smaller area. The D chamber and bore is significantly smaller.

Sonny

Kwuaymaikrup

I was wondering the same thing. I mean is it that the head stud is pulling out of the D block or is it a matter of the head studs stretching when the heads lift? Maybe the overall casting of the D series heads are just poorly designed and are warping between the studs when boost is applied...*shrug* I haven't really lookied into any of the threads about the heads lifting so I don't know if any of my guesses are remotelly close or not but I see a lot of threads about this so I was curious.

Boltz

One can speculate a few things about the issue but not much solid evidence.

Bump

*Boostwerks*

I think they just arn't torquing the head down enough...

Sonny

Are you guys who have lifted your heads all running ARP studs or stock bolts? Were the studs screwed into the block finger-tight or with some torque?

Sonny

DIRep972

iTrader: (1)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Sonny &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Why don't we hear about B series engines "lifting" their heads?
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I know of a bunch of B series heads that have lifted. Tuning issues.......

ladysman

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Bryson &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I think they just arn't torquing the head down enough...

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we can't. smaller studs.

Tinker219

Would it be worth it to have your studs enlarged? If you guys are sleeving anyway, just have them drill/tap for the B series studs? Also, drill out the head for the larger studs? Just tossing ideas out. If the only differences between the B and the D is the studs, than I guess I dont know why people havent done this yet...

BauleyCivic

Some guys like SOHC_MShue have had issues with D-series head lifting even with ARP head studs. I myself had an issue with lifting on my mini-me because I re-used head bolts, and didn't retorque them after the initial install. After I installed ARP's and a new gasket (no head milling or deck resurfacing), everything has been peachy. Of course, I know guys who have been pushing 200+ WHP on stock d-series and been fine with the stock head bolts.

Another note...do you think b-series heads being heavier has anything to do with them not having head lifting issues?

SOHC_MShue

yes I have had problems with it lifting even with arp headstuds, a resurfaced head, and copper spray. Next thing to check is my block when it blows again

Sonny

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SOHC_MShue &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">yes I have had problems with it lifting even with arp headstuds, a resurfaced head, and copper spray. Next thing to check is my block when it blows again </TD></TR></TABLE>

Did you get your block decked when you built your engine up? When I was building the D16A1 for my CRX, I had the block decked. The machinist said he had to remove a pretty decent amount of material (.004" comes to mind) to get the deck flat again. This block had about 100k on it.

Sonny

legendboy

haha its not really "head lifting" its head bolts stretching (as said above). D series head bolts are weak compaired to b series bolts. That being said, they are both too weak for fi imo.

*Boostwerks*

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by legendboy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">haha its not really "head lifting" its head bolts stretching (as said above). D series head bolts are weak compaired to b series bolts. That being said, they are both too weak for fi imo.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I dunno about that when it comes too ARPs. As long as you don't over yeild the bolts it should be fine. let me stress the words...should be.

igo4bmx

how are the threads in the block itself? isn't aluminum pretty weak?

IMO some crazy hard (titanium) head bolts and steel inserted threads in a d is an idea

Tinker219

Ok, so the D series bolts are too weak. Why not drill the block/head out for B series bolts? At least B series width bolts, Im not sure if any of the B series bolts would be short enough...

ELSpool

The studs are not the problem, there have been others to have great success with these blocks under high hp.

m R g S r

Jeff Evans posted something about this *I think* it was him. . .

That the D series blocks are not as rigid as the B series in terms of structure. . . Hold, on, lemme find the post.

stackz

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Bryson &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I think they just arn't torquing the head down enough...

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I concur...either that or other "human error" factors are involved. I've seen too many high hp d-series to believe this to be anything other than human oversight at one point or another in a build.

too many cheap asses who try to make themselves out to be ballers on here when they buy $$$ pistons $$$$ rods and then skimp on the machining/fasteners to come out even...

and they end up getting burned in the end. All comes down to this...yet again...

3 options, pick 2:
1. cheap
2. reliable
3. fast

beerbongskickass

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by m R g S r &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Jeff Evans posted something about this *I think* it was him. . .

That the D series blocks are not as rigid as the B series in terms of structure. . . Hold, on, lemme find the post.</TD></TR></TABLE>

http://www.evans-tuning.com/viewtopic.php?t=762

I have no evidence to support my idea, but from an engineering standpoint I believe that the SOHC block structure is not as torsionally stiff as the b-series/h-series. Look at the block webbing, compare with a b-series. Under boost the block twists and #1 and #4 cylinder are able to be shifted, and boost pressure is able to get into the sleeves pressurizing the coolant jackets, therefore having the pressure of the coolant system greater than what the radiator cap is rated for and coolant fills up the overflow tank. The only way to test this would be to install three axis strain gages onto the block at multiple points, and do a strain test under boost. I would be willing to bet that is what is occuring, but its only speculation.

igo4bmx

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by beerbongskickass &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">http://www.evans-tuning.com/viewtopic.php?t=762

I have no evidence to support my idea, but from an engineering standpoint I believe that the SOHC block structure is not as torsionally stiff as the b-series/h-series. Look at the block webbing, compare with a b-series. Under boost the block twists and #1 and #4 cylinder are able to be shifted, and boost pressure is able to get into the sleeves pressurizing the coolant jackets, therefore having the pressure of the coolant system greater than what the radiator cap is rated for and coolant fills up the overflow tank. The only way to test this would be to install three axis strain gages onto the block at multiple points, and do a strain test under boost. I would be willing to bet that is what is occuring, but its only speculation.</TD></TR></TABLE>

that is very interesting...
i have an appt with jeff on the 26th of this month.. i will definately bring this idea up and see if he is interested in researching this on my new motor

Jared

I'm told sleeving the D block helps tremendously. If it is the smaller diameter stud that is the problem after sleeving, why not drill the hole bigger and retap for a bigger stud like the huge hp B series guys do?