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Assistance Needed:B16A Turbocharged CRX w/ inconsistent rpm under positive pressure.

Assistance Needed:B16A Turbocharged CRX w/ inconsistent rpm under positive pressure.

 
Old 04-18-2019, 01:31 PM
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Default Assistance Needed:B16A Turbocharged CRX w/ inconsistent rpm under positive pressure.

Car is a turbo b16a CRX. Had it at the tuner and was having issues with breaking up. He couldn't get it to not break up above 8k RPM. I have it back trying to diagnose and it seems to break up badly whenever I'm in boost. Cuts out badly sometimes it's like the car shut off for a second or two then it kicks back in. Already installed brand new Grams fuel injectors, new Walbro 400 fuel pump with new fuel sock, brand new distributor and NGK plug wires, and new spark plugs gapped low by the tuner. Car is running e85 and has a brand new e85Freaks fuel filter which I have already checked and is clean. I have a couple data logs of it breaking up i can post if that would help. Basically tried everything and not sure what else to do. The only thing my tuner suggested was possibly the head was lifting under boost. There is oil all over the front right side of the block and I can't find where it's coming from so it's possible but I think it's coming from either my cam seal or catch can. Also compression tested fine and the leakdown test was good, no overheating no mixing of coolant and oil no bubbling rad etc. Thinking about pulling it and getting the head checked because I'm out of options but I don't want to waste time/money if it's not necessary. Has ARP studs already. It's definitely not a problem with the tune, I took it to a very reputable shop. Any ideas?
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Old 04-18-2019, 02:12 PM
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Default Re: Assistance Needed:B16A Turbocharged CRX w/ inconsistent rpm under positive pressu

Only doing this at certain rpm and engine load?
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Old 04-18-2019, 04:55 PM
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Default Re: Assistance Needed:B16A Turbocharged CRX w/ inconsistent rpm under positive pressu

It seems to be random. I just tried new plugs with no luck. I'm thinking now it might be a fuel issue, it would appear I used the wrong fuel filter sock
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Old 04-18-2019, 07:14 PM
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Default Re: Assistance Needed:B16A Turbocharged CRX w/ inconsistent rpm under positive pressu

Fresh tank of gas?
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Old 04-19-2019, 04:29 AM
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Default Re: Assistance Needed:B16A Turbocharged CRX w/ inconsistent rpm under positive pressu

What brand distributor did you buy?
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Old 04-20-2019, 07:06 AM
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Default Re: Assistance Needed:B16A Turbocharged CRX w/ inconsistent rpm under positive pressu

Breaking up is 9/10 ignition related. I would go through all the basic ignition tune up things you can, set plug gap small, check and clean cap and rotor.

with you saying it cuts out for a full second to me almost sounds like possibly a faulty ignition switch. Sounds weird but if you have more then a few keys on your key doing a pull will pull on the key and move the ignition in a weird way possibly causing a disconnect for a brief moment.
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Old 04-20-2019, 09:34 AM
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Default Re: Assistance Needed:B16A Turbocharged CRX w/ inconsistent rpm under positive pressu

I'd suspect spark blowing out at high RPM/boost.

What plugs are you using? What is the actual gap?
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Old 04-20-2019, 12:56 PM
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Default Re: Assistance Needed:B16A Turbocharged CRX w/ inconsistent rpm under positive pressu

I'm using BKR7E gapped at .18. The tuner recommended me a distributor and said he had good luck with them, not sure the brand but it was $300. I don't think it's the ignition switch, it only does it in boost I'm pretty sure. I'm running e85 I bought a Spectra fuel strainer and it looks like it doesn't work well so I'm trying the airtex.
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Old 04-21-2019, 04:21 PM
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Default Re: Assistance Needed:B16A Turbocharged CRX w/ inconsistent rpm under positive pressu

Originally Posted by MastaFlyMason View Post
I'm using BKR7E gapped at .18. The tuner recommended me a distributor and said he had good luck with them, not sure the brand but it was $300. I don't think it's the ignition switch, it only does it in boost I'm pretty sure. I'm running e85 I bought a Spectra fuel strainer and it looks like it doesn't work well so I'm trying the airtex.
How much boost?
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Old 04-21-2019, 06:48 PM
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Default Re: Assistance Needed:B16A Turbocharged CRX w/ inconsistent rpm under positive pressu

Originally Posted by wunfstgsr View Post
How much boost?
16psi. Using a Speed Factory 4 bar map
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Old 04-21-2019, 07:29 PM
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Default Re: Assistance Needed:B16A Turbocharged CRX w/ inconsistent rpm under positive pressu

Originally Posted by MastaFlyMason View Post
16psi. Using a Speed Factory 4 bar map
For low boost generally under 15 psi.. your gap should be between 0.028"- 0.032"
For high boost 30-40+ your gap should be between 0.018' - 0.022"

Try 0.032" and gap it down if needed to no less than 0.028" and see if you experience spark blow out still.
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Old 04-23-2019, 05:10 AM
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Default Re: Assistance Needed:B16A Turbocharged CRX w/ inconsistent rpm under positive pressu

Originally Posted by MastaFlyMason View Post
16psi. Using a Speed Factory 4 bar map
The question is, which turbo are you using? (airflow rate)

Originally Posted by wunfstgsr View Post
For low boost generally under 15 psi.. your gap should be between 0.028"- 0.032"
For high boost 30-40+ your gap should be between 0.018' - 0.022"

Try 0.032" and gap it down if needed to no less than 0.028" and see if you experience spark blow out still.
I'd enhance your distributor system by adding a digital nofx and or internal ICM for better mJ of spark.
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Old 04-23-2019, 06:13 AM
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Default Re: Assistance Needed:B16A Turbocharged CRX w/ inconsistent rpm under positive pressu

Turbo is a Turbonetics 5857. I took the plug gap down to more and didn't notice a change. Looking into the nofx and icm now

EDIT: Can you link me exactly what you're talking about? I have an MSD Blaster coil laying around if that may help?
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Old 04-23-2019, 07:39 AM
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Default Re: Assistance Needed:B16A Turbocharged CRX w/ inconsistent rpm under positive pressu

Originally Posted by MastaFlyMason View Post
Turbo is a Turbonetics 5857. I took the plug gap down to more and didn't notice a change. Looking into the nofx and icm now

EDIT: Can you link me exactly what you're talking about? I have an MSD Blaster coil laying around if that may help?
the blaster coil (be it the OG Cylindrical one or a newer MSD 8207) is just part of the equation. A blaster coil removes the internal coil component (but not the ICM (aka "ignitor") out of the equation. If the car fires up the ignitor is fine. It's the internal coil that might need to be changed to an external like the one below


Internal COIL may need to be upgraded or changed


So, if you have a blaster COIL, it replaces the OEM one

8207 External blaster coil

or

Uglier, but similar effect

Or. try the simpler solution which is either get another OEM Coil, (which I have for sale, BTW) or get the ACCEL Replacement coil that kicks out more mJ of power
(which you can get for the same money, and not have to worry about converting your distributor cap


Accel Coil for B-series


Now, I'd try that first. If it STILL isn't getting enough spark, you may need in addition to that is an actual Digital ignition box. that really saves the spark plugs.

Summit racing / Private label DIGITAL ignition box

So, In order, I would......

1) Try another OEM Coil if quickly available
2) Get an Accel internal coil use your blaster coil (more work for you, on using the Blaster coil

Keep the gap at no less than .0028"

Then if it still is breaking up, you ADD components, you don't take anything away.

3) Add digital ignition BOX.. (don't use anything with the letter "AL" i.e. MSD 6"AL" is still analog)

BE DONE.... No COP, no mess.

Example: My current engine bay... (Ignition Box & external coil are right by the ABS assembly on the front passenger side of the engine bay).

I'm gapped to .028 on NGK 7s, at over 500whp. I'll only go to NGK 8s on Time attack days.


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Old 04-23-2019, 02:43 PM
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Default Re: Assistance Needed:B16A Turbocharged CRX w/ inconsistent rpm under positive pressu

I just ordered an accel coil. My tuner thinks my issue may be head lift. We noticed a good amount of oil and it looks like it could be coming from where the head meets the block. I did another compression test and leakdown test, checked oil and coolant and nothing else points in that direction. He seems to think possibly under boost it is lifting the head and breaking up. He suggested I pull the head and at least check the torque on my head studs. Does this seem like a likely possibility?

I drove the car around today did a couple things as well. Seems to break up at random but only in boost. I did a new fuel strainer and it didn't help. I will take the spark plug gap back up. I'm not 100 percent sure it's ignition related but it seems to be. I just tried to do a pull and around 6500RPM it sounded like a machine gun fire and wouldn't accelerate anymore. Does that sound like ignition breakup?

Let me know what you think, I'm about to pull the head and get it checked for flatness and do a new hg but I don't want to if it isn't causing my issue

Last edited by MastaFlyMason; 04-23-2019 at 03:04 PM.
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Old 04-23-2019, 03:48 PM
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Default Re: Assistance Needed:B16A Turbocharged CRX w/ inconsistent rpm under positive pressu

What you're describing sounds like ignition cut at 6500 rpm. The "machinegun fire" seems similar to 2-step operation.

Another **possible** option (although a stretch) how's your vehicle speed sensor? I had a similar problem with cutout around 4500 rpm and caught it in a datalog one day that during the cutout moments, my car was not registering speed. Removed the pigtail and it was dirty, causing a poor connection. Cleaned it up and problem went away. Again, a stretch but possible.. Easier than diving into the head right away and won't take more than 10 minutes to check. **shrug**
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Old 04-23-2019, 03:51 PM
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Default Re: Assistance Needed:B16A Turbocharged CRX w/ inconsistent rpm under positive pressu

Originally Posted by Txdragon View Post
What you're describing sounds like ignition cut at 6500 rpm. The "machinegun fire" seems similar to 2-step operation.

Another **possible** option (although a stretch) how's your vehicle speed sensor? I had a similar problem with cutout around 4500 rpm and caught it in a datalog one day that during the cutout moments, my car was not registering speed. Removed the pigtail and it was dirty, causing a poor connection. Cleaned it up and problem went away. Again, a stretch but possible.. Easier than diving into the head right away and won't take more than 10 minutes to check. **shrug**
Interesting thought. I checked my tune and currently don't have launch control active. I also have a cable VSS and I know it sometimes gets pulled out (the clip it broken and haven't been able to source a new one)

Would it cut out if I wasn't registering speed?
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Old 04-23-2019, 04:16 PM
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Default Re: Assistance Needed:B16A Turbocharged CRX w/ inconsistent rpm under positive pressu

Originally Posted by MastaFlyMason View Post
Interesting thought. I checked my tune and currently don't have launch control active. I also have a cable VSS and I know it sometimes gets pulled out (the clip it broken and haven't been able to source a new one)

Would it cut out if I wasn't registering speed?
This is the really odd part. On my datalogs, I was registering RPM, but VSS was 0. However, I was not registering speed when these moments occurred in the datalog. My dash speedo was. My thought behind this is that the mechanical part was fine, just the electrical signal that was buggered. At least that's why I think it wasn't showing in the log. If you're having problems with a speed sensor, this may be causing your woes.
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Old 04-23-2019, 04:53 PM
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Default Re: Assistance Needed:B16A Turbocharged CRX w/ inconsistent rpm under positive pressu

Another thing to check is no lift shift. I have had issues with it engaging because the imput was inverted or not inverted sending the ecu signal to activate it when it wasn't supposed to. If it happens at the same rpm then I would say launch control/ no lift shift possible issue
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Old 04-23-2019, 04:59 PM
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Default Re: Assistance Needed:B16A Turbocharged CRX w/ inconsistent rpm under positive pressu

Full throttle shift isn't enabled either. I'm going to check my datalogs and see if it is registering VSS

EDIT: Just double checked VSS looks fine through the whole log

Last edited by MastaFlyMason; 04-23-2019 at 06:03 PM.
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Old 04-23-2019, 06:25 PM
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Default Re: Assistance Needed:B16A Turbocharged CRX w/ inconsistent rpm under positive pressu

head lift would show other symptoms. he needs to stick to tuning. he's not a mechanic
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Old 04-23-2019, 06:47 PM
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Default Re: Assistance Needed:B16A Turbocharged CRX w/ inconsistent rpm under positive pressu

Originally Posted by TheShodan View Post
head lift would show other symptoms. he needs to stick to tuning. he's not a mechanic
^^ I agree here as well. Head lift doesn't fit here. With what you describe, it's ignition cut. Explanation: the machine gun like sound is from the ignition dying while the fuel keeps going; just like an ignition cut rev limit or 2-step. As the fuel builds while the ignition is interrupted, that's what causes the pops. When the ignition fires in between, that fuel is lit. POP...POP...POP...POP... Anyhow. I'd explore the ignition options and Troubleshooting thats been discussed above.
I'll comb through the thread again to brush up on the whole story or catch something I may have missed.

Edit: what engine management are you using?
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Old 04-23-2019, 06:57 PM
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Default Re: Assistance Needed:B16A Turbocharged CRX w/ inconsistent rpm under positive pressu

Originally Posted by Txdragon View Post
^^ I agree here as well. Head lift doesn't fit here. With what you describe, it's ignition cut. Explanation: the machine gun like sound is from the ignition dying while the fuel keeps going; just like an ignition cut rev limit or 2-step. As the fuel builds while the ignition is interrupted, that's what causes the pops. When the ignition fires in between, that fuel is lit. POP...POP...POP...POP... Anyhow. I'd explore the ignition options and Troubleshooting thats been discussed above.
I'll comb through the thread again to brush up on the whole story or catch something I may have missed.

Edit: what engine management are you using?
I'm using Hondata S300. I've read a couple other threads regarding the issue, someone said they had an issue with their ECU. I have a friend with an S300 so I'm gonna try his and see if it makes a difference. Accel coil has been ordered as well I just don't feel like it's a dizzy issue. I've had 3 dizzys on the car with the same result. The one on it now is brand new however not OEM. Tuner said he has had good luck with them though and it was pretty pricey ($300)

Thanks all for the help I really want to get this car ripping. Made 320whp @ 7500RPM I'd love to be able to rev it out and see what it can do. Thinking about just saying **** it and ordering the summit box too
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Old 04-24-2019, 01:22 PM
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Default Re: Assistance Needed:B16A Turbocharged CRX w/ inconsistent rpm under positive pressu

Originally Posted by TheShodan View Post
the blaster coil (be it the OG Cylindrical one or a newer MSD 8207) is just part of the equation. A blaster coil removes the internal coil component (but not the ICM (aka "ignitor") out of the equation. If the car fires up the ignitor is fine. It's the internal coil that might need to be changed to an external like the one below


Internal COIL may need to be upgraded or changed


So, if you have a blaster COIL, it replaces the OEM one

8207 External blaster coil

or

Uglier, but similar effect

Or. try the simpler solution which is either get another OEM Coil, (which I have for sale, BTW) or get the ACCEL Replacement coil that kicks out more mJ of power
(which you can get for the same money, and not have to worry about converting your distributor cap


Accel Coil for B-series


Now, I'd try that first. If it STILL isn't getting enough spark, you may need in addition to that is an actual Digital ignition box. that really saves the spark plugs.

Summit racing / Private label DIGITAL ignition box

So, In order, I would......

1) Try another OEM Coil if quickly available
2) Get an Accel internal coil use your blaster coil (more work for you, on using the Blaster coil

Keep the gap at no less than .0028"

Then if it still is breaking up, you ADD components, you don't take anything away.

3) Add digital ignition BOX.. (don't use anything with the letter "AL" i.e. MSD 6"AL" is still analog)

BE DONE.... No COP, no mess.

Example: My current engine bay... (Ignition Box & external coil are right by the ABS assembly on the front passenger side of the engine bay).

I'm gapped to .028 on NGK 7s, at over 500whp. I'll only go to NGK 8s on Time attack days.

I had this set up years ago! works well, I had the entire MSD setup. Burton racing makes a very simple plug and play COP kit. Im also thinking of upgrading with there kit.

https://www.burton-racing.com/collec...il-on-plug-kit
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Old 04-27-2019, 01:10 PM
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Default Re: Assistance Needed:B16A Turbocharged CRX w/ inconsistent rpm under positive pressu

Just an update: I got the Accel coil installed and it seemed to help a lot. Car seems solid until around 8k then I'm breaking up but before it was terrible and was breaking up as soon as I got into boost. Ordering the Summit box and an ICM delete and hopefully the issue will be resolved.
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