thelate1

i am planning on running this setup and was looking for anyone else who has done it. i will be running stock internals for now, with a realistic goal of 200 whp. i am looking for all info on install problems, fitment issues, etc. please list your entire setup and how you like it.

all info is greatly appreciated!

thanx
shawn

jdm91integ

Go over to http://G2IC.com, click forums, then click on search. Type in 14b and hit enter. You will find tons of information.

If your not already a member you will have to register first.

turbogeekDA6

better yet, just read the G2ic turbo guide... it will explain everything.

tegrakid

i have a DA been boosting since friday afternoon with a T3/T4 57 trim it awesome with a turbo that size should spool faster

0project dc2

iTrader: (1)

i can make you a log manifold if you're interested i got a 14b here for mokc up 275 $ shipped

SleepyEG

A buddy has one, I just sent him the link so he should be on shortly. It was just switched over to uberdata, I'll let Jake give the specs, but it ****** tears my B18C1 EG hatch a new butthole. So ya, look for more than 200whp that's for sure.

BlackKnight7

I have a 92 RS
Turbo mod list:
Uberdata
190 Walbro fuel pump
450CC injectors
91 Integra resistor box
14b
dsm O2 housing (ported)
custom 2.5 inch turbo back exhaust
pvc intake piping w/oil guaze filter
mkIII supra FMIC
custom 2 1/4 inch IC piping
JS Safeguard Classic
modified dsm oil return
Flameco-T oil feed
Weld-L homemade manifold

I ran a S-AFC I for about a year, then about two weeks ago switched to uberdata, and I will never go back. I went for slowly getting walked on the highway by 12 second dsm, to walking him by two or three lengths on a 40-100 mph pull.

As far as installation issues there were plenty. If you would like me to ellaborate on them I can for you. Most of them were like oil leaks, boost leaks and what not.

Jake D.

thelate1

jake,
yes please elaborate on everything. i would like to know what i'm getting into. for everyone else, yes i am a member at g2ic, and i actually printed out the whole 71 page turbo guide. it has so much info it's hard to comprehend. i am reading the guide, but was more conserned with what issues i will face when trying to assemble everything, and what things to look out for. i really appreciate the help everyone.

thanx
shawn

BlackKnight7

First a few words on why I am doing this write up. A little over a year ago I was in the same boat and there was very little first hand knowledge to be found. Second I am sick of hearing the same people complain about people not searching, and then not doing anything to remedy the situation.

Why don’t we have a write up, Tech section, FAQ, or newbie section?

Ok pull up a chair and put your reading glasses on because this might be take a while.

First off if you would like to minimize the down time of your car I would suggest doing the project in several parts. The first parts being parts that you can safely put on your car while keeping it in stock form. As a note this little stuff does not have to be done in order, which is each little project does not depend on the others.

<U>Little Projects</U>

The first of these "little" projects is to install the fuel pump, the upgraded fuel pump is a must if you want to make serious power. I went with a walbro 190, which is plenty for 200 whp, its 100 dollars and completely worth it. It took me 7 hours to install the pump. This was because unlike 3rd gens you must drop the fuel tank. A Haynes manual will walk you through the whole process. Some words of wisdom, rusted bolts are baaaaaad use PB blaster and let them sit for at least an hour, especially the ones the hold up the fuel tank. Also, be careful with the ones that hold on the fuel pump cover, you don't want to have to fix those...not fun. Oh and make sure you put the filter on the correct direction, or it will not fit in the tank right.

Now when I did the project, I put my SAFC in ahead of time, but I would suggest going with Uberdata. I believe you can install uberdata with just the stock ls program and have it run fine, but I have never done this, when I installed it my car was already turbo. To install Uberdata you need to chip your ecu, they cover this all at http://www.pgmfi.org. I did this all myself, and I have very little soldering skill, so it is doable, just be really careful about getting the solder on leads, I had problems before I cleaned up my soldering. As far as programming goes you could do research on it on the internet, or you could talk to KPT4321 (he tuned my car). He’s on like 6 boards and he spends like 6 hrs a day helping people so pm him.

Also I did my battery relocation for fairly cheap I posted it up here when I did it, I had heard of a couple DSM guys doing this and thought it was an awesome idea. It is a lawn mower battery, purchased at Wal-Mart for 25 dollars, and the box I made with my dad out of scrap and some simple TIG welding. Here’s the link https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=455433

I would recommend removing the AC system because it is just less of a hassle. You can however buy manifolds the will allow you to keep the AC. For me it was not a hard decision and I just got rid of it. It is a fairly simple procedure, get it drained by a shop, (which is hard by the way because most people do not like to deal with R-12), or drain it yourself, which is bad for the environment and illegal. If you want to do it yourself make sure it is well ventilated and do not be around while it venting (and by the way it can be under a lot of pressure, so be careful).

Ok I’ll try to go through things in a logical order now, this is stuff I did as the “main” project; ie all at the same time, so I’ll talk about all the stuff in the fuel system that was changed etc.

<U>Fuel System</U>

Ok I used 450 cc DSM injectors. I used my stock injector clips because they work with the DSM clips, I’m not sure if this is the same as yours, my car is obd1 and might have different clips. The only modification to get the injectors to fit is to modify your stock injector to manifold seals. Now I am sure there are other ways to do this but here’s what I did, I put my stock seals on a dowel, and carefully sanded them down with a die grinder, and a sanding drum; a Dremel will do the job here to. The reason for this is if you look at the DSM injectors they are much wider where they meet the manifold. Just take your time here take a little off at a time and test fit, and you won’t have a problem. If you do too much sanding, then the injectors will not seal against the head and you will have a boost leak. Save yourself the headache of diagnosing a problem, and do it right the first time. Also, it does not hurt to use a little RTV on the final install.

Now correct me if I’m wrong here, but you have a 91 so you should already have a resistor box for your injectors, so you won’t need to worry about installing one. That’s about it for the fuel system, although I would definitely recommend replacing your fuel filter if it’s been a while.

<U>Turbo Mounting/plumbing</U>

What I found was the most logical thing to do is to mount the turbo on the manifold and work out all the plumbing from there.

Side Note: You should port the O2 housing on the 14b and a bunch of other fun like porting the turbine inlet, also I would suggest going with a bigger wastegate flapper, to reduce boost creep. With a bigger flapper, and lots of porting my car will not go anywhere below 9 or 10 psi. Since you are going with a DSM turbo you get cool things like the DSM FAQ to help you out, so go there for this stuff, plus KPT4321 will clean up my mess when this is done and tell you were to go if you are interested.

Note: If you do not do any porting, then you are GUARANTEED to get boost creep, which could go to 15 psi or more. As such, if you want your motor to survive, you NEED to port the turbo. The main area that needs to be ported is the wastegate inlet and exit area. The gasses entering the turbo need a smoother path to the wastegate, so build a nice curve from the inlet down to the wastegate opening. Next, look in the wastegate exit area. With the knowledge that the wastegate will only open around 30-40 degrees at full boost, you can see that the gasses passing through it will run directly into a big cast wall. You have to port the crap out of this well, and make it both longer and wider; when you are done, the separator between the wastegate outlet and the turbine outlet should be much narrower, and the wastegate outlet should be shaped like a bell.

If you think you have done enough porting, go back and double the time you spent on it. You don’t want to have creep issues and have to pull the turbo off for more porting.

A bigger wastegate flapper (available from most DSM vendors) is also a good idea, coupled with lots of porting.

Ok first off I made my own log style manifold, you can buy your own whatever. I would suggest a log style because of price and practicality. If you want to know how mine was made or see pictures, just ask.

Once the turbo was mounted it’s time to mount your intercooler. Mine did not come with the proper mounts so I had my dad weld some on, and then attached the intercooler to the frame with sheet metal screws.

Ok now it is time to be a plumber (smile and all). First, a word of advice: go with stainless or aluminized piping, rust is a pain in the butt, and painting leads to scratching and then rusting. Basically you just have to solve what would be the best way to route piping around a few obstacles, while getting the best flow possible. A few words of been there done that, put all the stuff that is going to be in the way that you can back in, it will save you a headache. Second, do not and I repeat do not have some one weld the piping that is not very good with a welder. Leaky welds on IC piping are no fun, and there is no reason they should happen.

Now I did the exhaust, you could wait on the exhaust until after you get the car running, it is up to you. Once again I would recommend aluminized or stainless steal, I used mild because it was cheaper, not worth it in the long run if you ask me, and my exhaust is very rusted after not even a year. The plumbing of the exhaust is fairly straight forward, but I could elaborate if need be. You can weld in a bung for your 02 sensor or use the DSM bung in the 02 housing. Personally I would go with the stock place for two reasons; lengthening and re-soldering the O2 wires is never a good idea, and if you keep the stock O2 under the car you have an extra bung if you want to use a wideband at some point. It is up to you, if you don’t use the DSM bung make sure you plug it, I took a drain bolt from a DSM tranny and used it to plug the hole.

<U>Oil and Coolant</U>

The biggest PITA for me was the oil return. I drilled a hole for the oil, and two holes for the bolts on the DSM return flange. I would not recommend this as I had plenty of sealing problems. I would get a threaded flange weld that in and get a matching thread piece. Basically do the whole thing with a SS line with fittings etc. I have seen a few pictures of this done on H-T several times.

The feed line I bought from Flameco-T you could put the same kit together yourself, but I did it because it was just less that I had to figure out. It’s a good kit the SS line is already the right length.

I used the DSM hard line fittings on the turbo, and attached them to the coolant lines running to and from the throttle body. I have a diagram of this if you want. I used plastic T’s from McMaster to get for both the feed and drain.

<U>Conclusion</U>

This is by no means a comprehensive guide, as I left out many things like vacuum lines, boost lines, mounting the bov etc. If you are confused ask me, or search I am a college kid I have lots of free time.

Do not get discouraged by boost leaks, oil leaks, and coolant leaks, and if you have fuel leaks shut the car off. Build a pressure tester and check for boost leaks regularly believe me they make a difference. Most of all enjoy this project because if you are anything like me it will not be your last.

Jake D.

thelate1

any one else running this setup?

thelate1

i think i speak for all of us newbies to forced induction....thank you jake!!
shawn

kpt4321

wOOt for the sick writeup.

DA-MAX

great post!!! turbo DA

my setup is VERY similar(almost exact to some effects...14b/TD05)...just hope to get it up and together again

XDEep

any dynos on a stock motor @ ~10psi? im worried my 14b with its ~.48 turbine housing might start to die out up top while my t3 will just keep pulling.

i have a stock b18a, shooting for 250whp or 10psi max before i build the block (far future, if ever), home tuning with turboedit/techedge, 450cc's, ic, logstyle manifold.

the t3 is a newly rebuilt .63/60. however i still need to get a tial wastegate, replace the turbine housing, oil inlet/return flange and whatnot which will lead to an additional $275+.
heres a t3-60 compressor map plotted with b18b demand lines.



the 14b seems to be in good condition (no play whatsoever). assumed .42/.48A/R, and it already has the stock dsm downpipe (with o2 sensor even) which i can connect easily to my catback, internal wastegate, oil inlet/drain fittings. additional cost - $0.
heres the 14b compressor map plotted with b18b demand lines.


i could do the 14b now, then wait to be built and run the t3 after. i can either just chop off the 14b flange or upgrade to a tubular. rewelding isnt a problem as im welding everything up myself. cost IS an issue as you can tell with the ghetto homemade setup, but i do still want to make the best decision.

BlackKnight7, btw SleepyEG sent me

SleepyEG

Glad to see you found it from fab-forum. Jake(BlackKnight7) and Kyle(Kpt4321) are at work, so I guess that leaves me to speak up. I'm at work too, but I get a computer

Jake is running the 14b with the stock exhaust housing with a bigger flapper (I believe) and he has ported the turbo out extensively. The car pulls great to redline, and the boost/power does not fall off at all up top.

On my B18C1 with a 14b, we built my tubular mani, and ditched the stock exhaust housing for a 7cm housing from a 16G. This housing is ported and has a bigger flapper as well. Also we ditched the stock O2 housing, and built a custom DP. It pulls great up top as well, and I am probably making a decent amount more power.

For what you're going for I'd go with the 14b with some porting and a custom DP.

Hope that helps, I'm sure you'll hear from the other guys later as well, and they'll correct my mistakes

kpt4321

Don't spend so much time fretting about the smaller turbine housing of the 14b.

The factory 6cm housing is around an A/R of 0.42, and the bigger 7cm housing is approximately 0.50. However, A/R does not tell the whole story.

The flow characteristics of the hot side as a whole are dependant on the housing AND the turbine wheel. The Mitsubishi turbine wheels are, for some reason, exremely efficient and flow very well for thier smaller size.

As an example, consider the boost characteristics of a Mitsubishi turbo. A Mitsu turbo with the 7cm turbine housing (approximately 0.50 A/R) will display similar flow and boost response characteristics to a T3 turbine housing with an A/R of 0.63.

As a matter of fact, you can get into a lot of trouble trying to use a Garrett wheel in a Mitsu derived housing, or vice-versa, due to the differences.

kpt4321

We don't have any dynos for either of the cars yet, but we will at the end of the summer.

I would highly suggest that you do NOT use the DSM O2 housing. It is a very restrictive piece when you are trying to flow a lot of exhaust.

On SleepyEG's car, we designed and built our own O2 housing / downpipe, and I feel that it is one of the reasons he has excellent boost control and a good powerband.

Egg-weezy

Not a B18a but the setup will be similar.




HKS manifold w/ adapter plate, custom piping, custom downpipe, JG Intake manifold, VAFC hack, DSM injectors, Greddy BOV, Starion IC, MSD stuff.

At 5 psi I got 202 hp.

kpt4321

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MidoriHB &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
At 5 psi I got 202 hp.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

WOW!

With that in mind, I fel very confident that SleepyEG can possibly push the 300 whp barrier, and that Blackknight7 shouldn't have a problem with 250 whp.

That power curve looks great. You really should get yourself on Uberdata, you would be AMAZED at the difference it makes.

Hey big turbo guys, check out that torque curve. ******* beautiful.

Egg-weezy

Funny you say Uberdata cause I plan on getting that setup starting next week!!

I still have a really restrictive exsaust on there. Once I open that up and and turn up the boost I expect to hit around 275 to 300 with the 14B turbo. I want to upgrade to a T28killer. A friends got it on his GSX and the thing pulls hard and spools very quick. I couldn't imagine what it could do for a higher compression setup such as the GSR...I would expect it to spool at about 2800rpm and pull strong till redline.

The turbo is amazing! It spools starting at around 2200rpm and will hits full boost at 2700rpm and goes strong till redline at 5psi. If I'm already in gear and just step on the gas the turbo will spool till full boost in a couple of secs. It only takes 300rpm to hit full boost if i'm already in gear. Great for an autocross setup for ripping out of the corners and excellent for those street drops. I down shift and don't wait for turbo lag cause there is none and its instant accelleration. Good enough to stick with modded STIs and EVOs. Keep in mind only at 5psi. I'm keeping it at 5psi cause its a safe tune for now. Look at the torque #'s from just changing over the VTEC settings. 1st run the Vtec was set at 6800, 2nd run the VTEC was set at 5500rpm for max torque, and the 3rd run for the max horsepower the VTEC was set at 4500.







Modified by MidoriHB at 10:23 AM 5/18/2004

DA-MAX

MidoriHB...how made the adpater plate for th HKS mani? got any pics of it off the mani. and how is the radiator clearence?

jDMJeRk

nice numbers....
Jake, thanks for the write up...
Bump..Just so I can find this in a few months

kpt4321

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MidoriHB &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I want to upgrade to a T28killer. A friends got it on his GSX and the thing pulls hard and spools very quick. I couldn't imagine what it could do for a higher compression setup such as the GSR...I would expect it to spool at about 2800rpm and pull strong till redline.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

I would highly suggest against it.

The T-28 killer is an overpriced, and badly matched turbo. If you want to upgrade, I'd be more than happy to discuss some of the options that share the turbine flange you are already using, as well as options that do not. Just start a thread and let me know, or IM or e-mail me. However, again, I would suggest you don't waste your time with the 28 killer.

XDEep

great thanks a lot guys, i have a new faith in the 14b now. i dont know about making a new downpipe though, since im hooking it up to a puny 58mm greddy catback which i adore until i find the perfect 3" combination i like. i'll just port it out for now.

did you guys do anything to the dsm wastegates? i was gonna make it adjustable so i can start at 4-5psi.. maybe construct some pop-off valves so i can hold the boost better until releasing.

kpt4321

Both of the cars I helped build used massively ported housings and the larger 34mm flapper. One of the cars uses a 7cm turbine housing, which I feel is the best option by far.