Anyone ever run into this with file fit rings....

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08-23-2010, 01:53 PM

Hybrid96EK

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Anyone ever run into this with file fit rings....

JE pro seal rings. Had the block set to .0035 PTW clearance which I later saw was an error on my part. I read the data for the 2618 pistons vs the 4032 ones. Different metals, different expansion rates, different PTW clearances. Anyways, didn't think much of it. When I went to fit the rings, I didn't have to file one single ring. They were all within the factory Honda max end gap specs. Again, didn't think much of it.

The engine runs well, from what I can tell. Makes great power (I have yet to verify at the track or dyno) and seems to be getting great mileage for a boosted setup (averages 28-30mpg). The problem I have is it, randomly, likes to consume oil. I had a friend follow behind me once and he said it smoked like hell under load. I never saw it in the rear view but the other day after engine braking to slow down, I got back on it when the light went green and saw a decent sized cloud appear. Oil consumption sometimes is very minimal, other times its pretty heavy. Im beginning to wonder if this has something to do with the rings and the PTW clearance. Compression shows 185-195psi cold, and raises 10psi each cylinder for operating temp test. Leakdown was ~ 7% for each cylinder. Stem seals are brand new, all gaskets/rings/pistons/rods/bearings/pump, etc are newer also.

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08-23-2010, 02:22 PM

viper_boy403

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Re: Anyone ever run into this with file fit rings....

How did you seat the rings? or did you even do that at all?

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08-23-2010, 02:42 PM

NonovUrbizniz

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Re: Anyone ever run into this with file fit rings....

What kind of crankcase ventillation do you have setup? also what's the boost pressure?

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08-23-2010, 02:47 PM

Hybrid96EK

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Re: Anyone ever run into this with file fit rings....

Quote:

Originally Posted by viper_boy403

How did you seat the rings? or did you even do that at all?

Engine has been together for a while. Rings are seated by now. It has approx 3k miles if I had to take a guess without pulling up the logs..

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08-23-2010, 02:49 PM

Hybrid96EK

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Re: Anyone ever run into this with file fit rings....

Quote:

Originally Posted by NonovUrbizniz

What kind of crankcase ventillation do you have setup? also what's the boost pressure?

Stock PCV system with the breather port on the top of the valve cover vented to atmosphere. Boost is at 9psi right now. I did disconnect the PCV line at the intake manifold and plugged the port on the manifold. I noticed a very very small amount of "smoke" coming out the PCV hose line. Im not an expert, but I would assume a small amount of blow by is normal. If I bring the RPMS up, the pressure from this line decreases.

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08-23-2010, 02:53 PM

vwbased

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Re: Anyone ever run into this with file fit rings....

have a nice day

Last edited by vwbased; 01-27-2013 at 09:09 PM. Reason: have a nice day

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08-23-2010, 02:57 PM

Hybrid96EK

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Re: Anyone ever run into this with file fit rings....

Quote:

Originally Posted by vwbased

Don't forget to inspect the turbo. Look for oil soot behind the turbine heatshield or oil in the compressor housing. Too much crankcase pressure can cause this. Also worn turbo bearings from too little oil flow (if you have been using a restrictor) can cause seal leakage. A good low restriction breather is a necessity. A crankcase vacuum pump works even better.

The turbo was purchased brand new in the box. Never used. The oil line setup has a restrictor of the proper size. The oil drain is also -10an and in the correct location with correct angle to allow for adeqaute drain. I can take pictures if anyone wants confirmation. The exhaust side has usual carbon build up, the intake side is spotless. I would eat off the intake side its that clean.

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08-23-2010, 03:04 PM

vwbased

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Re: Anyone ever run into this with file fit rings....

have a nice day

Last edited by vwbased; 01-27-2013 at 09:08 PM. Reason: have a nice day

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08-23-2010, 03:14 PM

Hybrid96EK

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Re: Anyone ever run into this with file fit rings....

Quote:

Originally Posted by vwbased

Regarding the ring end gaps, the max Honda new spec is only 0.014 inch for the top ring. That is too small for a turbo application. The rings should have come with end gap recommendations for several different applications. Use their recommendations. Since you have assembled the engine already, put some low boost miles on it before you turn up the boost in 3rd, 4th or 5th gear. This will open the end gaps somewhat.

I must have had a complete brain fart. Sorry. I did use the formula provided by the ring manufacture (JE) to calculate end gap based off cylinder bore. I measured the top ring gap at .022 for #1 and .024 for #2-4... The second ring gap showed .019 for #1, .018 for #2, .019 for #3 and .017 for #4. As far as oil control rings, they just have a spec for min value. If its above the min I am assuming its good to go based on the information. According to JE's formula, I am supposed to see approx .0148 for the top ring and .0163 for the second ring. Since the top ring was already wider then the spec given by JE, I was not able to do anything. The top and second ring are compression rings, and as the test show, my compression is great. I don't think this is of concern. Am I missing something here?

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08-23-2010, 03:19 PM

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vwbased

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Re: Anyone ever run into this with file fit rings....

have a nice day

Last edited by vwbased; 01-27-2013 at 09:08 PM. Reason: have a nice day

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08-23-2010, 03:21 PM

#11

Hybrid96EK

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Re: Anyone ever run into this with file fit rings....

Quote:

Originally Posted by vwbased

The blow-by will increase under load. Crankcase pressure can decrease ring seal. Are these "low tension" rings?

I am running 0.0045 inch PTW clearance with CP pistons in a sleeved B20. No restrictor and #4 line on a T4 turbo. I have zero smoke BUT I am using a crankcase vacuum pump set to 8 inHg. I am sure this is overkill.

I believe many folks here will recommend that you improve your breather setup. This is certainly the easiest and cheapest thing to do at this point.

That is one theroy I haven't looked into. I am not sure if they are low tension rings. They are the ones supplied by the piston manufacture (SRP pistons/JE) and are JE "pro seal" rings. I do not believe they are of the "low tension" type.

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08-23-2010, 03:27 PM

#12

vwbased

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Re: Anyone ever run into this with file fit rings....

have a nice day

Last edited by vwbased; 01-27-2013 at 09:07 PM. Reason: have a nice day

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08-23-2010, 04:16 PM

#13

Hybrid96EK

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Re: Anyone ever run into this with file fit rings....

Quote:

Originally Posted by vwbased

Assuming we are talking about an 81 to 84 mm bore, the top end gaps sound fine. The second ring gaps are safe but some will argue that they should be larger than the top to avoid top ring flutter and loss of seal. If the second ring is an iron napier, it will wear in pretty quickly and the end gap will open up rapidly. The bottom line is that your end gaps are fine.

Sorry. I left out the other part of the puzzle. Its a D16Y8, using 70.25mm pistons. The exact bore, as recorded by my machine shop, is 2.9649".

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08-23-2010, 05:59 PM

#14

blackeg

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Re: Anyone ever run into this with file fit rings....

i think your gaps are off, or at least the top ring is. im also using je proseal rings. my top gap is .022 and 2nd ring is .025. all this on an 84mm bore.

ideally you should be about .018 top and .020-.021 2nd ring.

also, when you put the oil consumption rings in, did you make sure to sit the 2 skinny rings into the ringland after the grooved ring? are those gaps staggered out about 15 degrees each?