chet

now i have a 4g63 powered dodge colt...but turbo setups are pretty similar and alcohol injection has been popular with the grand national guys.

was wondering if anyone has been running alcohol or is thinking about running alcohol. while i always felt like it worked pretty well (have a friend who has gone 10.89@130 in a 94 mirage w/ it on 93 octane) i kinda thought it was more trouble than its worth.

after seeing a friend tune the car on aem...kinda changed things a little and i've ordered a progressive kit from http://www.alkycontrol.com.

anyone w/ honda's use this kit...and if so what kinda PSI/timing were you able to get out of your setup.

thanks...all thoughts...are welcome.

for my setup...i'm looking to run 26psi...93 octane...which is pretty convenient because its like a setup that is always on. jerry (the guy with the awd mirage) makes a good point in that running race fuel (which i've been doing on the street) is never consistent unless you're able to add the same amount of race fuel to 93 octane every time. in my case...i know i'm just adding a few gallons of leaded gas in order to get a little more timing out of the stock ecu. (so it won't pull timing quite so soon)

PrecisionPerformanceParts

great for the street

AccidentproWn

Just posting to subscribe. I'd like to hear more on alcohol injection myself.

alpha

Alcohol injection is great for high boost/hp/torque applications. I was going togo that route but I decided togo with propane injection due to alcohol being abrasive. I would like to hear from some other people with experience about this subject as well.

jason190

I was looking into the propane injection also. That looks like a better way then alcohol.

alpha

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by jason190 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I was looking into the propane injection also. That looks like a better way then alcohol.</TD></TR></TABLE>

We will see. I have no real world experience with it as of yet. This is what I got.

http://www.importpoweronline.c...362a7

http://www.importpoweronline.c....html

98lude-t

i run it . the gain is the timing and detonation supression outa it. no power gains unless u turn up the boost. but as you have read it helps with heat and timing.

chet

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 0x64 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Alcohol injection is great for high boost/hp/torque applications. I was going togo that route but I decided togo with propane injection due to alcohol being abrasive. I would like to hear from some other people with experience about this subject as well.</TD></TR></TABLE>

alcohol is very corosive...but its only in the engine for a few seconds...then heat and regular combustion help to eliminate the ill effects before any damage is done. those who have run alcohol (mostly dsm guys i know) have said there are virtually no carbon deposits in the head and it tends to clean the cylinder head.

i'm not too familiar with propane injection...although i would assume it has similar characteristics to alcohol.

Tony the Tiger

I don't run a full alcohol mix... The mix I use is about 40% alcohol and 60% water... Alcohol is another type of burning fuel, and I didn't want to throw off my base A/F while the system is active. Water it also the main ingredient in absorbing the heat during combustion, but alcohol tends to supress the gasoline in the mix and virtually increases the octane rating. You would want both for best result.

Some turbo guys had great success with water/alchy injection, but a lot of them actually spray about 14-16% of water based on total fuel mass.... If you spray that amount, you have to tune for it by upping the timing, trimming the fuel and up the boost. And yeah, there are quite a few people out there who had very good results -- some 400+ WHP MR2's, and a flock of GN owners. But if you don't tune for the water/alchy injection, the car would bog and lose power. What I didn't like about that fact is that my engine would be in risk of a meltdown if the water/alchy injection ever fails or fails to spray its intended amount... These guys are running crazy lean A/F,s about 13.1:1AFR, and really aggressive timing based on the boost and AF numbers. When the injection system fails, the engine will not last one pull. I didn't want the engine to be less reliable by depending it on some water pump and nozzles...

So I took a slightly different approach and sprayed only a little (about 6% vs fuel mass)... I really liked how my car ran during a very humid night, so I wanted to simulate this type of weather condition everytime.

I started by tuning the engine to be more aggressive -- leaner A/F's (I am running about 12.3-12.4 AFR as opposed to 11.5-11.8 from before), and also increased the ignition timing by 4-5 deg everywhere during boost. I did this tuning without the water injection. The engine does register much more aggressive knock patterns and really pulls a lot harder than usual. However, I didn't believe this type of tuning was safe enough for back to back redline pulls and perhaps some 5th gear pulls.

I would then have the water injection to spray on top of the more aggressive fuel and timing maps. Basically, my car pulls slightly harder then originally, but much more safer. Sort of like getting the same power but with much more safety. I am getting lower knock readings and actually a quieter engine with the water/alchy injection compared to without the injection but with richer A/F's and lesser timing I was originally running. The car is not slower nor much faster than before though -- just lower knock readings and a smoother running engine with less vibration.

What I ended up with now is a system that would benefit the longevity of the motor; however, if the injection system ever fails, my engine will not blow up right away or risk of a complete meltdown because the car does run fine without the water injection in the first place. The water/alchy injection is basically giving my engine a "foggy and humid weather" everyday

So far, it's working great... The engine feels like it's not working as hard as before and with much smoother knock curve, but it pulls just as hard as before I am planning to so the same type of system for my other car which is a bigger and badder version of my Integra.


Modified by Tony the Tiger at 12:30 AM 2/2/2005

Joseph Davis

If you can hit your desired power level without water injection, then don't bother. KISS and all that - don't fool with an overly complex system unless you have to.

Water/diluent injection serves two disparate purposes:

1) Increases bsfc, mpg, and power output under part throttle conditions, when you tune for such.

2) Raises knock limit for people like myself with redneck straight line power addictions, without suckering you into expensive racegas.

Alcohol, as Tony mentions, has less cooling capacity than water. I'd run no more alcohol than required to keep my injected mix from freezing on a cold night. I have no interest in the inferior cooling capacities of alcohol, but the $0.98 gallon sized Window Kleen is very convenient and a consistent mixture.

Surface tension of water prevents it from spraying very well through a conventional fuel injector - those of us with electronic water injection setups cut our water with a surfactant to reduce said surface tension. *cough* acetone *cough*

Any Urban Myths of water/alky having any intercooling effect are LIES. So are the IATs people bandy about to support such claims. The gains in knock limit are entirely from water latching onto + carrying excess heat out of the combustion chamber so the engine doesn't melt itself down under those speshul high boost times we crave; a good intercooler is still recommended.

chet

great information guys....i really appreciate your responses.

first, the reliability issue was definitely my biggest fear although it seems like the kit from alkycontrol has been reliable in the past and i'm just running a stock longblock which means it'd be easy to replace if i absolutely needed to.

tony, with your setup...what type of nozzle are you using?

are you just using a progressive kit which intensifies the mist...or a single injector (or 4 injectors) where you can specify pulse width. a friend of mine is going to wire a whole set of injectors to run just alcohol and it seems like that would be the best way to get 100% tunability out of the setup...but at the same time add complexity and headaches that i'd rather not deal with.

also...how were you tuning the whole setup...did the alcohol have its own map sensor and you were just tuning...off of the standard basemap or is it a standalone...where you were able to compensate for everything while tuning on the dyno.

bbarbulo

ok outta curiosity... are you guys injecting water pre or aft turbo?? I was reading on GN site that was saying mist the air before it enters the turbo. I was gonna do mine after the turbo. Also! for those running after the turbo, what kinda pump and what kinda nozzle are you running, and where are you injecting it... before or after the intercooler, and if after... then how close to the throttle body? Are you running TPS/RPM based switch, or PSI based switch? Thanks for replies

BoostAddict231

Most GN guys spray after the intercooler, about 4" before the throttlebody. Most GN guys run straight 100% denatured too. Some like a 70a/30H2o mix. If memory serves me correct, straight alcohol is around 108 octane.

chet

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bbarbulo &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">ok outta curiosity... are you guys injecting water pre or aft turbo?? I was reading on GN site that was saying mist the air before it enters the turbo. I was gonna do mine after the turbo. Also! for those running after the turbo, what kinda pump and what kinda nozzle are you running, and where are you injecting it... before or after the intercooler, and if after... then how close to the throttle body? Are you running TPS/RPM based switch, or PSI based switch? Thanks for replies</TD></TR></TABLE>

i know the kit i'm going to be running will be based off of a psi/map sensor. basically...their is a module which runs off of voltage...and when the map sensor reaches a certain voltage the pump is turned on and from there it sprays alcohol.

i'll be running the nozzle about 8 inches from the TB after the blow off valve. the same guy i made a reference to earlier...has formulated that it's best to spray alcohol in a place where there is an angle on the IC piping because he says there is more turbulance in this area which helps to mix the alcohol and charge.

i'm not sure i'd want to spray alcohol before the turbo because it is corrosive and i'd rather not coat the compressor wheel with alcohol. while i doubt it matters...it seems like the whole setup would be more effective after the charge were pushed through the intercooler etc.

Joseph Davis

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bbarbulo &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I was reading on GN site that was saying mist the air before it enters the turbo. </TD></TR></TABLE>

That is a wonderful way to atomize the water, if you don't mind chewing up the compressor blades and needing a new turbo every 10K miles. Liquid is a little too dense for a compressor blade to be smacking into at 100K+ rpms.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by chet &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i'm not sure i'd want to spray alcohol before the turbo because it is corrosive and i'd rather not coat the compressor wheel with alcohol. </TD></TR></TABLE>

No. Alcohol is not corrosive. It is incompatible with the rubber seals/lines in conventional fuel systems, and laymen incorrectly term this "corrosive." If you want corrosive, try water. That H2O **** is a powerful oxidizer, and the closest thing to a universal solvent you'll find.

jason190

Wow this is some good info

chet

guys...i've been reading a lot on the turbobuicks forum where it seems like everyone is running alcohol + 93 and some are now running c16 + alcohol.

razor aka julio (www.alkycontrol.com) has posted some great information in a few of these threads.

check these out.

http://www.turbobuicks.com/for...30033

http://www.turbobuicks.com/for...29279
(i'm going to be running razor's kit...as he lives in tampa etc)

http://www.turbobuicks.com/for...30905
(above link discusses benefit of c16 vs methanol...very interesting again)

MtnCRX

this is a great thread. anyone have comments on water injection? i need to run 93, but only have 91 available here in CA. been making up for it w/ race gas/91 mixture and i just know its confusing the hell outta my setup. I think with water injection, i should be able to run 91 without a problem. Anyone know a good kit other than the jackson racing one ($600!) BTW - got a jrsc runnin 8 pds.

Tony the Tiger

^^

Read my earlier post. I am running a mix of water and alcohol. Basic windshield washer fluid... The alcohol is there to prevent freezing here with the stupid -20 C in Toronto

7thgenauto

most 7th gens are running some sort of alcohol system past 7psi. i have never used one but i know i need to upgrade to this.

MtnCRX

thanks tony.. must have read over your post before. with the timing i currently have (needing about 93 octane), would i still need to tune for the water injection? or could i simply throw the kit on and run on 91 with current settings?

JDogg

i have used the setup from http://www.derekdevises.com on a few cars with good results. the nozzle in that kit is awesome, constant flow and really good atomization.

using that kit with 50/50 meth/water (sunoco meth) on a **** ton a boost with heat soaked i/c we noticed about a 50 deg drop in intake temps. 85-90deg down to about 40

Joseph Davis

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JDogg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
using that kit with 50/50 meth/water (sunoco meth) on a **** ton a boost with heat soaked i/c we noticed about a 50 deg drop in intake temps. 85-90deg down to about 40</TD></TR></TABLE>

Erroneous and misleading - no way in hell were your true intake temps anywhere as low as your IAT was reading.

JDogg

go pour some methanol on your hand.. notice how it gets really ******* cold.

so you are telling me that a honda iat sensor just happned to decide to drop 40 deg every time we were spraying the methanol.

if it dosnt work then go talk to the engineers that build all those non intercooled turbo race cars that run methanol and no other type of cooling devices.

_entropy

When you can see built up condensation on the intake pipe, and IAT's are plummeting, I'm going to say there's a substantial reduction in charge temps. It makes sense that when you put a relatively cool liquid with lots of surface area in little droplets that it is going to absorb a ton of heat from the airstream.