wfocrx

I'am going to be building up my d16z6 soon and would like an ultimate goal of ~400whp. to do that with a d16 it seems you have to push at least ~25psi with a decent sized turbo. will it be ok to do it with 93+methanol?

vtecspeed1320

i wouldnt worry too much about methanol, thats just a way to get away with lack of tuning. You should be fine with a good solid tune on 93, and i remember correctly you guys have gas stations down there that offer more than 93 correct.

Tony the Tiger

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by vtecspeed1320 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i wouldnt worry too much about methanol, thats just a way to get away with lack of tuning. </TD></TR></TABLE>

I wouldn't think that way.. I don't care how well you can tune your car, but you cannot make an engine run under one fixed condition. A **** tank of gas, a used set of injectors that haven't been flow tested, a weak pump, a bad alternator/electrical system, etc.. will be enough to kill a motor that is tuned at the edge of detonation on pump gas. There is something called "good tuning", and "safe tuning".

Tony the Tiger

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by wfocrx &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'am going to be building up my d16z6 soon and would like an ultimate goal of ~400whp. to do that with a d16 it seems you have to push at least ~25psi with a decent sized turbo. will it be ok to do it with 93+methanol?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Don't just quote "93 + methanol", let us know how much you plan to spray and what system you are using. I see more motors blowing up from a shitty water/meth system more than stupid tuners blowing up an engine with a shitty tune.

vtecspeed1320

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tony the Tiger &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I wouldn't think that way.. I don't care how well you can tune your car, but you cannot make an engine run under one fixed condition. A **** tank of gas, a used set of injectors that haven't been flow tested, a weak pump, a bad alternator/electrical system, etc.. will be enough to kill a motor that is tuned at the edge of detonation on pump gas. There is something called "good tuning", and "safe tuning". </TD></TR></TABLE>I dont think that you would be pushing the limits of safe tuning with this setup.

Def

I would say you'd be pretty close to the edge. All it would take is something like a WOT pull after sitting in traffic for a long time to start knocking regardless of what your timing is.

tony413

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by vtecspeed1320 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i wouldnt worry too much about methanol, thats just a way to get away with lack of tuning. You should be fine with a good solid tune on 93, and i remember correctly you guys have gas stations down there that offer more than 93 correct.</TD></TR></TABLE>

yes in florida at SOME very LIMITED gas stations you can get 97 at the pump. some of the local shops also sell sunoco 100 octane and C4 for around $4.80-$7.70 regular 93 where i live at is $2.79-$2.86 depending on stations.

to OP whats the compression on the motor ?

iBrandon

Sunco 101! $5.50 gallon though...ouch...but mmmm Purple gas i love it! haha..

tony413

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by iBrandon &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Sunco 101! $5.50 gallon though...ouch...but mmmm Purple gas i love it! haha..</TD></TR></TABLE>

smells good too

wfocrx

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tony413 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

yes in florida at SOME very LIMITED gas stations you can get 97 at the pump. some of the local shops also sell sunoco 100 octane and C4 for around $4.80-$7.70 regular 93 where i live at is $2.79-$2.86 depending on stations.

to OP whats the compression on the motor ?</TD></TR></TABLE>

in the title. 8.5:1.

alpha

With the right setup it can be done. All you have to worry about is equal distribution and pump failures. If you do end up going the meth injection route setup some safe guards

tony413

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by wfocrx &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

in the title. 8.5:1.</TD></TR></TABLE>

oh sry didnt pay attention anywho what turbo do you plan on running some turbos are more efficent than others an may get you to 400hp at a lower level because they may flow high CFMs

quicksilver1689

dont you guys think that 93 octane combined with a properly setup meth/water injection system would have an effective octane of at least 100octane. more likely around 105-108 depending on the mixture of meth

quicksilver1689

i know methanol has an octane of 116.

vtecspeed1320

a good topmount turbo, with wideopen 3" exh, and a smaller a/r gt35r turbo, it shoud be possible without pushing the threshold...and no sitting at a stop light and then getting on it at w.o.t. will have anything to do with detonation.

Tony the Tiger

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by vtecspeed1320 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> no sitting at a stop light and then getting on it at w.o.t. will have anything to do with detonation.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I am not going to argue about what is safe or not, because I get people telling me that 500 WHP on stock block is safe too.

Sitting at a light on a hot day will create heat build up, whether it's hotter coolant temps, heatsoaked fuel pump, or hotter IAT's from lack of airflow at the intercooler on a traditional FMIC setup. If you don't think heatsoak will contribute to detonation, make sure to remind me to stay away from you if I ever needed tuning

SOHC_MShue

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tony the Tiger &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I am not going to argue about what is safe or not, because I get people telling me that 500 WHP on stock block is safe too.

Sitting at a light will create heat build up, whether it's hotter coolant temps, or hotter IAT's from lack of airflow at the intercooler on a traditional FMIC setup. If you don't think heatsoak will contribute to detonation, make sure to remind me to stay away from you if I ever needed tuning </TD></TR></TABLE>
Exactly it can heat soak and you will need to alter temp ignition corrections to keep knock down when intake temps get high.

vtecspeed1320

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tony the Tiger &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I am not going to argue about what is safe or not, because I get people telling me that 500 WHP on stock block is safe too.

Sitting at a light on a hot day will create heat build up, whether it's hotter coolant temps, heatsoaked fuel pump, or hotter IAT's from lack of airflow at the intercooler on a traditional FMIC setup. If you don't think heatsoak will contribute to detonation, make sure to remind me to stay away from you if I ever needed tuning </TD></TR></TABLE>Well since you want to be reminded of this, if you use a piggy back type system such as hondata, crome, they still use a stock ecu maps to a certain extent. Most ecu's from the factory adjust ignition when the iat's become warmer. dont come get your car tuned by me i dont care. I have had 0 problems out of all the cars ive tuned, even my 500+ whp stock block k24/k20a2 that i drive everyday on pump gas.

Tony the Tiger

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by vtecspeed1320 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Well since you want to be reminded of this, if you use a piggy back type system such as hondata, crome, they still use a stock ecu maps to a certain extent. Most ecu's from the factory adjust ignition when the iat's become warmer. dont come get your car tuned by me i dont care. I have had 0 problems out of all the cars ive tuned, even my 500+ whp stock block k24/k20a2 that i drive everyday on pump gas. </TD></TR></TABLE>

First of all, I'd probably walk away if I knew my tuner didn't know what a piggyback or standalone is. Crome/Hondata changes the values within the ECU itself, and that's NOT what we call piggyback E-manage, SAFC, MAP-ECU, etc.. are piggybacks.

Second of all, if you like using IAT ignition correction values originally meant for a factory NA Honda engine, go ahead and use it. No one is stopping ya.

I much rather tune a turbo Honda engine to follow the IAT ignition curve of factory turbo cars. Go look up on the IAT ign correction curves on cars like STi's, Lancer EVO, Supras or whatnot and tell me if they are the same as the factory Honda settings you've been using on your customer's cars I also modifty those correction values based on the amount of boost, and the amount of power the car is pushing on XX octane. Obviously, more attention needs to be taken for a 500 WHP pump gas Honda vs a 200 WHP Greddy kit.

GiNuWiNe

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tony the Tiger &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

First of all, I'd probably walk away if I knew my tuner didn't know what a piggyback or standalone is. Crome/Hondata changes the values within the ECU itself, and that's NOT what we call piggyback E-manage, SAFC, MAP-ECU, etc.. are piggybacks.

Second of all, if you like using IAT ignition correction values originally meant for a factory NA Honda engine, go ahead and use it. No one is stopping ya.

I much rather tune a turbo Honda engine to follow the IAT ignition curve of factory turbo cars. Go look up on the IAT ign correction curves on cars like STi's, Lancer EVO, Supras or whatnot and tell me if they are the same as the factory Honda settings you've been using on your customer's cars I also modifty those correction values based on the amount of boost, and the amount of power the car is pushing on XX octane. Obviously, more attention needs to be taken for a 500 WHP pump gas Honda vs a 200 WHP Greddy kit. </TD></TR></TABLE>

^^ Knows what he is talking about. I'm no superstar "Tooner" lol but from personal experience on my self tuned setup. Which doesn't overheat at all in normal weather, but lately we've been having 100+degree days. Sitting in traffic, in 107degree weather does in fact make my car overheat. Just thought i'd throw that out there, and i use Crome.

vtecspeed1320

Guessing you missed the point, I have a stock motor k24/k20a2 boosted with a gt4088r on 15psi using pump gas that I daily drive every single day...stop lights, long highway driving, I think I might have a clue what im doing.

Tony the Tiger

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by vtecspeed1320 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Guessing you missed the point, I have a stock motor k24/k20a2 boosted with a gt4088r on 15psi using pump gas that I daily drive every single day...stop lights, long highway driving, I think I might have a clue what im doing.</TD></TR></TABLE>

And I have a MKIV Supra 2JZ-GTE making 550 RWHP and a Toyota Camry V6 with 10.5:1 CR making 520 WHP through a high stall converter, and a 10.5:1 CR GT2871R Integra at 383 WHP @ 16PSI, all on pump gas. All daily driven because I have two brothers and they beat the **** out of the cars I've built for them.

Really, I am not here to show off my personal cars. My cars are nothing compared to most of the crazier setups seen here on HT.com. My cars are super mild in reality.

Your K-series doesn't mean anything at all to me.. You overlooked an important part of tuning, and that was it. The rest is up to how much unnecessary abuse YOUR engine could take. A K-series motor is known to be a lot more sturdier that most Hondas, that's why it's still in one piece. You also have a 2.4L which means the engine isn't that highly strung in comparison to most 1.8L B18's.

500 WHP K24 = 208 WHP per L
383 WHP B18C1 = 212.7 WHP per L

Just going by those smply comparisons, my 383 WHP Integra requires more tuning precautions than your 500 WHP K24. And my Integra is at 10.5:1 CR for the past three years.

Teglove2

Just because you drive a 500whp k24/k20 doesnt mean you have a clue about tuning like Tony said......personally I would NEVER trust alc/meth injection on a turbo d series running pump gas. Its too much to risk......IMO run good gas or back off the boost.

vtecspeed1320

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Teglove2 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Just because you drive a 500whp k24/k20 doesnt mean you have a clue about tuning like Tony said......personally I would NEVER trust alc/meth injection on a turbo d series running pump gas. Its too much to risk......IMO run good gas or back off the boost.</TD></TR></TABLE>you must have missed my first few posts then, i simply stated that i wouldnt run any injection its just a cover for a bad tune. And your right just because I have that car and I tuned it along with 3 of my other k series motors i have no clue. You should read the whole thread before you put words in my mouth.

thewrai6th

If my tuner didn't think heatsoak could cause detonation and/or my tuner called Hondata and Crome a piggyback, I would turn around and walk.