ATS*Mark

hey guys . my ultimate goal is 400whp on 91 in my d16y8 . what are the secrets to making sure this is achieved safely???

oscarmayer

the d cannot flow enough on "pump" 91-93 to product 400 wheel power. max recorded if i remember correctly is 347 wheel power on 19 lbs of boost on 94 octane. the d hsut doesn't have the flow capabilities. Don't get me wrong i'm buildign a monsterd motor myself. but i'm realistic in my pwoer numbers and know what to expect. at 27lbs of boos ton race fuel you can expect around 500 or so wheel power. but at 19 in 93 i can expect around 325-350 wheel power.

Rod.

bump this question, that is what i am looking for

1316130057

I'm no "D-Series Ninja" guy, but I can't imagine that a D series could make 400hp on street gas.

On a B series on the other hand, the main way to do it and have it run safely is all in the timing. High cyl pressure = blows engines apart. Keep the timing mild and the car will run forever. Likely sacrifice some torque in the process, but it'll make more torque with less timing than it will with more timing and a blown engine. Also keep in mind that you can blow even a forged and sleeved engine if the timing is wrong. Fuel should match boost, but timing is what brings it all together.

Factors like piston surface area and the engines overall frictional efficiency will bring up HP, but I'm sure you get the basic idea from the paragraph above. The other stuff is more a matter of maintaining HP, rather than making hp.

LBR92DA-T

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 1316130057 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'm no "D-Series Ninja" guy, but I can't imagine that a D series could make 400hp on street gas.

On a B series on the other hand, the main way to do it and have it run safely is all in the timing. High cyl pressure = blows engines apart. Keep the timing mild and the car will run forever. Likely sacrifice some torque in the process, but it'll make more torque with less timing than it will with more timing and a blown engine. Also keep in mind that you can blow even a forged and sleeved engine if the timing is wrong. Fuel should match boost, but timing is what brings it all together.

Factors like piston surface area and the engines overall frictional efficiency will bring up HP, but I'm sure you get the basic idea from the paragraph above. The other stuff is more a matter of maintaining HP, rather than making hp.</TD></TR></TABLE>

nicely put...

kpt4321

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by oscarmayer &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">the d cannot flow enough on "pump" 91-93 to product 400 wheel power. max recorded if i remember correctly is 347 wheel power on 19 lbs of boost on 94 octane.</TD></TR></TABLE>

That is a terrible claim. When you hit 35 lb/min, does the intake manifold close off to keep you flow flowing more?

First of all, if you're not flowing enough, turn up the boost. Easy stuff.

Second of all, if you are not flowing enough, make it flow more. Porting, cams, etc.

There's no reason it can't be done.

kpt4321

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 1316130057 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'm no "D-Series Ninja" guy, but I can't imagine that a D series could make 400hp on street gas.

On a B series on the other hand, the main way to do it and have it run safely is all in the timing. High cyl pressure = blows engines apart. Keep the timing mild and the car will run forever. Likely sacrifice some torque in the process, but it'll make more torque with less timing than it will with more timing and a blown engine. Also keep in mind that you can blow even a forged and sleeved engine if the timing is wrong. Fuel should match boost, but timing is what brings it all together.

Factors like piston surface area and the engines overall frictional efficiency will bring up HP, but I'm sure you get the basic idea from the paragraph above. The other stuff is more a matter of maintaining HP, rather than making hp.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Excellent post.

The main point to be made here is tuning wins. However, we really can't tell you what tuning "secrets" to use. No matter what some people may try to tell you, there is no real "secert" to tuning. Some people do this differently than others, but nobody does something that other people have not already thought of.

D@nnY

hes talking about flowing enough fuel ..not air

kpt4321

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by D@nnY &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">hes talking about flowing enough fuel ..not air</TD></TR></TABLE>

I doubt it, but if he was that's an even stupider claim. The motor you are running has absolutely nothing to do with how much fuel you can flow.

ATS*Mark

how could a b series flow more fuel than a d series , all you gotta do is stick bigger injectors on there....

i didnt really mean secrets , more like tricks of the trade , how can i do it without blowing my motor i guess is what im askin

kpt4321

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Hella_JDM &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">how could a b series flow more fuel than a d series , all you gotta do is stick bigger injectors on there....</TD></TR></TABLE>

Exactly.


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i didnt really mean secrets , more like tricks of the trade , how can i do it without blowing my motor i guess is what im askin</TD></TR></TABLE>

I would say your number one priority is to get some kind of knock monitoring on the car, so you can keep an eye on it. Knock is the number one killer of motors, ESPECIALLY motor running on pump gas. Don't tune it to a certain A/F ratio and a suggested timing and hope it will be ok; you will either not be making close to optimal power, or you will be in the danger range of hurting the motor.

1316130057

Fuel....someone should ban "D@nny".

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i didnt really mean secrets , more like tricks of the trade , how can i do it without blowing my motor i guess is what im askin</TD></TR></TABLE>

In addition to what KPT stated, you'll definitely want to keep your eye on EGT's. There's a safe limit, like say ~1200*F and the dangerzone is somewhere around 1350*F+. Stay as far as possible from the dangerzone. Quite incidentally, AFR and timing (and by extension, Knock) will affect EGT. As the temps approach "boom time", you need to change one of the 3 inputs (air/fuel/timing) and get your self back in the safezone at all costs. Ignore the EGT's and your car will eventually be motivated by a whopping 550ft/lbs of torque, supplied by your local tow truck.

kpt4321

I disagree with you there. I feel that if you are monitoring A/F ratio and knock, then there is no reason why you should need to or want to watch EGT's.

Would you care to explain why you believe they are a necessity?

tony1

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by kpt4321 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I disagree with you there. I feel that if you are monitoring A/F ratio and knock, then there is no reason why you should need to or want to watch EGT's.

Would you care to explain why you believe they are a necessity?</TD></TR></TABLE>

I agree, I only use egt's to compare cylinders to one another. So, let's say you're egt's are high, you add timing, they'll come down, and the motor pops. I don't tune by egt's!!

kpt4321

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tony1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I agree, I only use egt's to compare cylinders to one another. So, let's say you're egt's are high, you add timing, they'll come down, and the motor pops. I don't tune by egt's!!</TD></TR></TABLE>

Right on Tony.

I feel that EGT's are effected by multiple factors, and therefore if you don't know what these factors are doing (timing, knock retard, A/F ratio, etc) then the EGT is useless to you.

Of course, if you do know what these factors are doing, then there is no longer a reason to look at the EGT's.

There is one situation where I feel that a good EGT gauge can help you out, and this is early warning when something goes wrong. For example, if you tune your car using a wideband and something to datalog knock, you may not drive around with those devices hooked up every day. If your EGT gauge is suddenly a hundred degrees or more above where it usually sits, then something is wrong and you need to tune the car again.

I personally ALWAYS have a knock gauge active in my car, every time I drive it. I'd like to get a wideband too, hopefully this summer. The Innovate unit is great, but not very conducive to in-car mounting.

ATS*Mark

how do i moniter knock , is there a guage i can buy say from autometer ????
im kinda new to a knock monitering system . how is it measured and displayed on the guage , a percent? and how do i combat knock when i see it.

kpt4321

There are a couple different ways to monitor knock.

You can use an aftermarket system, like a J&S Safeguard. In my opinion, this is a pretty good choice for cars that were not equipped with factory knock sensors.

If your car has a factory knock sensor, then you can use a device that allows you to datalog knock, such as Uberdata or Hondata.

You can also set up a microphone, along with a bandpass and a amp, feeding a set of headphones. This will allow you to listen to the knock while you tune.

Most systems will the display the level of knock retard, which is the amount of timing that is being pulled to combat the knock. Tony, what does Hondata show you? I am not familiar with it.

tony1

I'm pretty sure hondata shows knock voltage. I know it's not timing retard.

kpt4321

Knock voltage, hm. Sounds like another arbitrary knock value. Some DSM dataloggers do the same thing with a knock "sum."

When using Hondata, do you simply tune to no knock voltage at all, or do you have a certain threshhold that you know from experience to work well?

warwagon

holy crap the j&s is hella expensive!!! what does it take to make the mic setup now?

tony1

I tune to no knock on hondata. I assume the knock voltage is setup to where you don't want any. You will only see it if you are leaning on it too hard, you won't see anything normally. It really works though, i've seena bit of knock and taken a degree or so out at that spot and it goes away. Too bad most people run p28 ecus that don't have knock sensors.

kpt4321

Good information Tony.

I have sen the same thing in a lot of cases, particularily with J&S cars. Not only does removing the timing in that area help get rid of the knock, but the way it effects the rest of the powerband is very interesting to watch.

In order to keep the knock and subsequent timing retard from cycling back and fourth, most knock retard devices will have a decay value such that when the knock goes away, they don't give you full timing right off the bat. This basically means that if you get knock at the beginning of a pull, you're screwed for the rest of it.

Take out a degree of timing at 4000 rpm, if you're knocking at bost onset, and you might make more power at 7000 rpm due to more timing advance there as well.

One other thing I am sure you have noticed is the fact that once detonation begins, it is much more difficult to get it to stop then it is by keeping it under control to begin with. Detonation that takes three degrees of retard to remove once it begins may only take one degree of retard to stop from starting in the first place.

ATS*Mark

how does uberdata express knock , same way as hondata , im thinking on trying uberdata but am totally in the dark as to how it works and such .

tony if i run a p28 ecu with uberdata or hondata , but my car has a knock sensor , will i still be SOL?? does the p28 not read a knock sensor?

tony1

p28 doesn't monitor knock...

ATS*Mark

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tony1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">p28 doesn't monitor knock...</TD></TR></TABLE>

what obd1 ecu does that i can chip