ranta18

Some of you might of seen this thread:
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=892099

This is the continuing story. PLEASE do not talk about AEM vs Hondata!

For the lazy:
2000 Civic Si
ERL Performance Superdeck II block (B16A2 w/ pressed in deck for 1.8 crank and 1.8 darton sleeves)
Balanced and blueprinted
JE 82mm 9:1 pistons
Crower rods
B16A2 head port and polished
Manley stainless steel valves
Skunk2 titanium retainers
Skunk2 springs
Skunk2 intake manifold
Skunk2 cam gears
T3/T4 .63 ar trim turbo
Revhard cast log manifold
Tial wastegate
Vortech bypsass valve
3" Thermal exhaust
Precision 880 injectors w/ resistor box
Walbro 255 lph hp fuel pump
AEM fuel rail
AEM fuel pressure regulator
AEM EMS
AEM 30-1010 Uego w/ gauge
3.5 bar map sensor
Electronic boost controller
LS 5 speed tranny
ACT XTSS clutch
ACT street-lit flywheel

We hit the dyno again with 110 octane "Cam2" gas and slowly upped the boost to 18 psi. At 18 psi it made just about 350 whp and I think the tq was about 270. The 110 octane allowed for some crazy timing advance. I think it was around 30 degrees at 18 psi and 8700 rpm (about 2 degrees more than the Kwai map). The plugs were gapped at .030". Because of the 110 octane it kept cutting out at certain rpms, so we would advance the timing a little and that would smoothen things out. I logged knock raw and it didn't show any spikes at all. Max knock raw was a small spike to 2.7 I believe. A/F was very flat and in the low 12 to high 11 range. It was a cool night and he didn't want to go any leaner for when he runs during the day. Max boost was reach fairly early at around 5K and then hung in there solid until redline. Unfortunately the boost controller wouldn't go any higher. He'll have to get a stronger wastegate spring. The only bad thing is he'll have to re-tune for 93 octane. Look for the yellow 00 Civic Si at BOTI this weekend.

What do you guys think about the results?

Hopefully Rizzo can post up some pics. After 4 hours of tuning my mind is a little fuzzy on the exact numbers.

G"UNIT

Nice setup man.. That timing is crazy. who is the tuner?

m R g S r

Souinds like they were tuning it. . .

crxY-49

don't know much about b-series but that doesn't seem like much for 18 psi on that turbo. people are pulling close to that on d-series

BEEYOND

That is off a bit, but can be about right with that small turbo and other factors. I've seen 300whp on 11-12psi with similar turbos. (OK OK you guys that make 300whp with 4-5psi don't need to comment!!! LMAO)

I still think that you should've netted 360-380whp... that would've been more like it!!! But then again other factors could've been the cause!!!

turbopimp

Would be helpful to know the compressor and turbine wheel trims...

ranta18

Its a standard RevHard Stage 2C T3/T4 .63 AR turbo.

dennis

What map sensor is that? the AEM one?

Does it look like ?

ranta18

****, I don't know. Its not my car. All I know is its the AEM 3 bar map sensor. Check their website.

ranta18

Question... If you were running 110 octane and 18 psi, what would be the max timing you would want at about 8800 rpm? Also, what spark plug gap? .028"?

TurboJesse

why are you running 110 gas for those HP levels? You should easily be able to make those numbers on pump gas and conservative timing..

ladysman

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mpir3 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">why are you running 110 gas for those HP levels? You should easily be able to make those numbers on pump gas and conservative timing..</TD></TR></TABLE>
Exactly. Just like I told you on IM, the timing is way to advanced. Bring it down and 93 could be used and make about the same power.

Either way, it should be making more power than what it is.

ranta18

The reason he is running 110 is because he wants to run 20+ psi of boost. Why just run 93 and have to turn the timing down and be limited on boost? The motor can handle 30+ psi.

ladysman

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ranta18 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The reason he is running 110 is because he wants to run 20+ psi of boost. Why just run 93 and have to turn the timing down and be limited on boost? The motor can handle 30+ psi.</TD></TR></TABLE>

You aren't understanding tuning at all.
You can make the same power on pump gas as you are with the 110. THE TIMING MAPS ARE TO FAR ADVANCED! Turn them down, and run 93 octane at 16-18 psi. It isn't the boost that is limiting you. It is the timing period. The reason you were knocking was because of the timing NOT THE BOOST!

I will say this nicely, you need someone that knows what they are doing there to do it or guide you. I am not sure others agree with me but this is my story and I'm sticking to it.

TurboJesse

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ranta18 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The reason he is running 110 is because he wants to run 20+ psi of boost. Why just run 93 and have to turn the timing down and be limited on boost? The motor can handle 30+ psi.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Not flaming...but i suggest you read up alittle more on tuning. With appropriate tuning those numbers (and a whole lot more) can be made on pump gas. Ask yourself what boost as a single variable really means?

ranta18

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ladysman &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The reason you were knocking was because of the timing NOT THE BOOST!</TD></TR></TABLE>

It wasn't knocking.

ladysman

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ranta18 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

It wasn't knocking.</TD></TR></TABLE>

From you first thread.
Results -
300 whp @ 11-12 psi
310 whp @ 14-15 psi
It started to show some spikes in the knock, so they didn't want to turn it up anymore. It was running 93 octane


Yes it was.

TurboJesse

just the fact that you only gained 10whp from 3-4psi on a fairly large turbo should tell you its knocking. Throwing race gas in as a bandaid to combat timing is something a DSM'er with an afc would do

ranta18

Yes on 93 it knocked at 16 psi. On 110 octane it did not knock at all and the timing at 8800 rpm at 18 psi was 30 degrees.

Instead of just saying "you need to go to someone that knows what they are doing" or "its the timing", how about some help as far as what to do. You say turn the timing down, but not what to. You guys are offering constructive critisism, which is cool, but without any help as what to do exactly, just vague help.

Answer me this though... Can you run 20+ psi on 93 octane without having to de-tune the ignition map? With higher boost, you have to run higher octane right? Or am I wrong in my thinking?

Today he got maps from a pro tuner and we will check them out. I'll try to post them to show what he think the maps should be like.

m3bluegsr

Something doesnt seem right. I have a somewhat similar setup and i made over 300 on 8 psi. Mine also only got reved to 7200. (has more room to work...some parts were 11.0 to 1 afr. ) I would take your car to AMS for a cleanup. They did an awesome job on my car. 30 degrees seems like alot even on that ocatane. I ran 100 just to be safe but it wasnt to run more timing.

TurboJesse

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ranta18 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Yes on 93 it knocked at 16 psi. On 110 octane it did not knock at all and the timing at 8800 rpm at 18 psi was 30 degrees

Instead of just saying "you need to go to someone that knows what they are doing" or "its the timing", how about some help as far as what to do. You say turn the timing down, but not what to. You guys are offering constructive critisism, which is cool, but without any help as what to do exactly, just vague help.

Answer me this though... Can you run 20+ psi on 93 octane without having to de-tune the ignition map? With higher boost, you have to run higher octane right? Or am I wrong in my thinking?

Today he got maps from a pro tuner and we will check them out. I'll try to post them to show what he think the maps should be like.</TD></TR></TABLE>

oviously putting race gas in will help to combat knock...but the point everyone is trying to make is that race gas is not needed For that HP level. You are using race gas as a bandaid to fix improper timing for a FI car.

Im not familar with AEM but a stock gsr map has a final advance of ~29 deg. Using a fairly conservative timing retard you should end up with 19-20deg @18psi.

Why are you so concerned about "De-tuning" the ignition maps? how is it detuning if the car will make more power with less timing?.

ranta18

I'll ask again... Can you run 20+ psi on 93 octane? With higher boost, you have to run higher octane right? Or am I wrong in my thinking? This is the reason for the 110. You say he doesn't need it for his hp, well he wants to run MORE boost to get MORE hp, which will require the 110. I could be way off though and thats why I'm asking.

alpha

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ranta18 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Its a standard RevHard Stage 2C T3/T4 .63 AR turbo.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I assume most of those come with a 50 trim compressor wheel or am I wrong?

TurboJesse

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ranta18 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'll ask again... Can you run 20+ psi on 93 octane? With higher boost, you have to run higher octane right? Or am I wrong in my thinking? This is the reason for the 110. You say he doesn't need it for his hp, well he wants to run MORE boost to get MORE hp, which will require the 110. I could be way off though and thats why I'm asking.</TD></TR></TABLE>

With appropriate timing...yes. The need for race gas is more determined by power level. as long as your within the efficiency range of your turbo the boost doesn't really matter. I wouldn't worry about more boost and more hp right now, retune the whole ignition maps with appropriate timing, before going any farther. You shouldn't have a problem making over 350WHP on pump gas @ the same boost level, tuned correctly.

DIRep972

iTrader: (1)

I understand what you're saying. W/ the race gas in the car you could have ran it up to 30psi. Now my question is why you stopped at 18?

I think everyone is trying to tell you that u didn't need the race gas to push 18psi on a 9:1 motor. It could have been done on pump w/ a different tune of course. (probably half the timing)

350 sounds about right for basially a revhard kit. It is a lil low but not that big of a deal. it could be the tuning or a choke on the set up somewhere.

On the race gas and 18psi, your timing is probably ok, would really have to check the plugs/see the datalog's/be there to know for sure though. When you say the race gas allowed for some crazy timing advance, what timing did you start out with? What kinda power gains/losses were u seeing when u pulled/added timing at 18psi?