99siky

A while back I posted a build thread here on my stock B16 making 242 WHP. I have been autocrossing the car with SCCA (at 200 WHP level though) and since then and have realized a couple things. First, I need an LSD... BAD!!! Second, I seem to run out of 2nd gear a lot on these courses (longer courses in my area). I would like to have a longer 2nd gear so I don't run out or have to quick shift to 3rd for 2 seconds and then immediately downshift back to 2nd.

I have had a lot of time to review threads here since the season ended to see what option would be best but it seems like everyone is doing different types of racing or don't really know exactly what they want out of their car. Or maybe I just missed the thread altogether...

My question to you is, would a taller gear with an LSD be my best choice or would it be more beneficial and cost effective for me to switch to another transmission (like ls) with a taller 1st and 2nd gear?

Either way I am getting an LSD because even with slicks my car needs better traction around turns while accelerating. I seem to steer away from used transmissions because I don't know how bad they have been abused before I got it. But I'm split on this decision which is why I'm asking collective advice.

If I missed a thread that would really help me here, please direct me so I can review it.

Thank you all for the help!

And by the way, my 200 WHP level has won my class and gotten me 7th fastest time out of 50 cars in the last race of the season. Its a blast to drive and I hope my build can help someone else that is looking into racing.

LTCxD2B

LSD only works in straight lines so around a corner ur still out of luck and an LS first and second or a whole trans in ur case would be a good choice if u can keep the Rpms up.
Cost wise if ur putting the gear set together ur self it would be around the same as buying a whole used trans

met

Might hit up syncrotech or such see if they have something, either way I believe they would be able to answer your questions better. My torsen lsd helped a lot with time trials too btw.

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

For Torsen OEM style Limited Slip Differentials, yes. For Helical and Clutch-type LSDs, no, that is not the case.

met

There are 3 different oem lsd differentials .:FFS TechNet : LSD Check! :. so this still doesn't hold true some are better than others.

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

At the bottom that are referring to the different types of LSDs that are available to be fitted to a Honda transmission... Not three LSD types that came as an OEM option.. I was on hanging around the Squad back in California when that forum was formed..

I also contributed to the Wikipedia article on limited slip differentials
Check under "types"

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limited_Slip_Differential

met

I know 100% there are at least torsen its what I have and its in the honda manuals, there is a viscous type as well that's in the manual too, I do not recall if there is a mention or not of a clutch type. I have not personally seen a clutch type come stock in a honda.
Back to the linked page here is a quote "Here's a little bit of tech info regarding 3 types of LSD's Honda uses in their 'missions:" Maybe they are wrong there, but this site is probably just as credible as wiki anyways.
I know you know your ****, but just trying to be a bit helpful and seems to be turning in a direction that's not so much.
I'm not a hard core driver I like to play, with that being said an open diff blows on the track with my limited experience torque steer up the ***. I switched to a honda torsen diff all that goes away, the one down side with them is if a tire lifts and looses traction the power goes to the tires that loses traction. This is easy tested you just lift one tire off the ground and the one lifted spins. From what I understand the viscous does not do this its more like a clutch.
In the grand scheme of things locating these oem parts are probably a pain in the *** now and people will tend towards the aftermarket anyways. I was just trying to squash the myth that torsen is the only type that came stock. Maybe that's the only type that came here in the us, and Japan is the only place that received the viscous types?

99siky

Ok.So what I have gathered so far is that a LSD, like the Quaife, will work on my application for high speed cornering.

Since it would be in the SCCA I just realized that I might not be able to get away with swapping the whole LS transmission because it wouldn't be from another civic (I'm in the street modified class). I do believe I can change gear ratios though, so I might be stuck with replacing the 1st and 2nd gear. Does anyone know anything different or have a suggestion on how to obtain just the 1&2 gear (like good company they used before, I prefer new, PM me if you know someone that you would do business with).

met

Syncrotech they are good people.

LightningTeg

First, The purpose of an LSD is FOR TURNING. So you can have more equal power distribution through both wheels. From my experience, LSD's dont make much of a difference in drag racing.

Second, LS transmissions share the same 1st and 2nd as GSR. Type R and B16 are shorter. So your SOL there unless you get a custom gear or increase final drive which affects all of the gears obviously.

LTCxD2B

We ain't drifting here and the oem LSD not viscous will do nothing during turns and if it does u will hit a wall head on

singlecamDA9

ls an gsr do share the same gear ratio for second gear. but gsr uses dual cone syncro. unlike ls uses a singlecone syncro. so gsr second would be direct swap along with gsr main shaft as well.

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

The Torsen Differential is what came standard in the Japanese Transmissions stamped "LSD". The USDM transmissions did not have one in any of their transmissions, except the TypeR, which did quite well in HPD events, albeit not as good as the others listed. Remember, an LSD still depends upon the tyres used, so it does help to use good rubber that works with the power level you have.

Now, with that said, the Torsen LSD only worked when the wheel was slightly turned, but in a straight line, acted like an open-differential, but still caused a lot of torque steer. At times, depending upon the power level, the amount of torque steer can trigger the locking mechanisms to work,but only because it "thought" it was about to turn, and no other reason. Even the Japanese circuit racers swapped out their Torsen transmissions in favor of clutch-type transmissions like ATS Cross, Kaaz, and Cusco. These clutch-types were perfect for 100% locking gear for FWD applications and are still used often in competition circuit racing and high-hp time attack events. The only caveats that people don't like is that they do require a specific break-in procedure and special Grade Level 5 oils, that only those manufacturers made and are generally more expensive. (at the time... that has now changed thanks to companies like Gear X and Special Projects)

In addition, depending upon use and abuse, the plates would need to be either resurfaced or replaced over time, and many street drivers just didn't want to put that kind of effort for a Clutch LSD.

Companies like Quaife, WaveTrac, and smaller companies like MFactory and King Motorsports, use Helical LSDs for their applications, similar to viscous in use and ease. The Helical was not 100% locking and were more street friendly as they didn't require as complicated a break-in procedure, and can use Over-the-Count lubricants like GM Syncromesh, and OEM Honda MTF, which were much less expensive and only required general maintenance. Helicals tend to slightly perform with a little more understeer from my experience, but is overall still a much better system than the OEM Torsen.

This article shows the differences, but the mistake shown was that the LSD for B18C5 was helical when it was actually a Torsen.

https://honda-tech.com/honda-crx-ef-...guide-2931549/

99siky

Ok. I did a little research over the past week and I think I will go with the MFactory LSD and then put in a 3.47 final drive gear set. I found a post on another forum that stated what the final gear ratios can do for the S4C transmission. I believe I might just go with the 3.47 so that way I can get in the 70 MPH range with 2nd gear. This way I can guarantee that the parts will fit and be brand new. Unfortunately $600 is a little more than I wanted to spend to accomplish this but in the end, I will have better highway cruising as well.

Also, based on my dyno from my tune, the 3.47 should keep my car close to the peak HP during the race.

Thank you all for the suggestions and help. Much appreciated. I have a lot of work to do once it starts getting warmer. New axle, clutch, motor mounts, LSD, and final drive. Should be a fun year on the track though!

NWP4LIFE: **B-series Transmission guide**

A lot of people have asked us for a base example of what to expect when fitting our products, so here you are. This is based on a stock B16A2 with S4C Box (8500rpm limit, stock gear ratios, stock 4.4 FD). Note that top speed is high as this does not include Aerodynamic Drag as a factor. All speeds are Approximate but gives you a good example:

1st: 40mph
2nd: 62mph
3rd: 90mph
4th: 118mph
5th: 154mph

With 4.05 Final Drive:
1st: 44mph
2nd: 67mph
3rd: 97mph
4th: 128mph
5th: 167mph

With 4.785 Final Drive:
1st: 37mph
2nd: 57mph
3rd: 82mph
4th: 108mph
5th: 142mph

With 4.928 Final Drive:
1st: 36mph
2nd: 55mph
3rd: 80mph
4th: 105mph
5th: 137mph

dcmatt

iTrader: (7)

Sounds like a horrible idea to go to that long of a final drive. The way the car performs in every gear will be affected not just 2nd gear. If anything try the gsr 1-2 set if you think 2nd is too short. Also the option to use a cheap ls ring gear n countershaft to try a slightly longer FD ratio.

I went from an s4c to an ls tranny temporarily and the car feels absolutely horrible in every gear. I could only imagine how badly it would be affected by the FD your asking about.

Dallasb84

Not trying to hijack but could you explain the ls ring gear and countershaft a bit more? Am I reading it will go in the s4c?

$amGD3

That feel when you realize your GSR transmission with OEM ITR LSD is worthless

dcmatt

iTrader: (7)

If you wanna swap the final drive you have too use the matching countershaft n ring gear. And yes they are interchangeable between ls n s4c.

Dallasb84

Why would you do that.... It's the same final drive I thought

Dallasb84

Del sol is 4.40 and si is 4.26 ls is 4.26. Same fd in ls and si right?

Dallasb84

I was under the impression there are thre final drives. 4.785, 4.4& 4.26

dcmatt

iTrader: (7)

S4c is 4.4

Dallasb84

K sorry for the hijack. Thanks for the help.

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

No. they are completely different final drives, but the ring gear of the B16 and LS share one family, while the GS-R & Type R share a different family.