EF9_TryMe

Anybody here had bad experience with the JE piston ring pro seals such as sticking or not fully
breaking in. This goes for the oil control rings. Anybody experience blow-by with these oil control rings ?

In my case, cylinder no.3 is getting blow by and fouling the spark plug. A really good observation is during a cold start. A puff of smoke is visible during this scenario..with the additional throttle applied, the result is severe. a little bit of driving, and operating temp ECT's the problem goes completely away.

My guess goes towards valve stem seals ? Anybody here agree with me ?

EF9_TryMe

Bump. I know somebody used these rings before.

4genaccordfreak

If the oil consuption goes away to a point where it is not visibly noticable at operating temperature, you can most likely rule out valve seals. Valve seals will leak no matter what engine temperature and usually the problem will be worse if the block and head are poorly vented allowing built up pressure to force oil into your cylinders.

As for the oil control rings... from my experience they do not theoretically "break in" since they are not designed to hold pressure (compression).

If you suspect oil is getting past your rings on cyl. #3, then I would suggest a leak-down test to confirm it.

There are too many variables to consider when burning oil and fouling plugs.

ie.
-incorrect hone
-incorrect P2W clearance
-incorrect piston ring end-gap
-warped cylinder
and also incorrect break-in procedure

EF9_TryMe

Beautiful info, and thank you for your reply 4genaccordfreak!

A leak down test has been laid down on the table.

Oil completely drained into a bucket, 80 PSI calibrated at the regulator during the procedure. With the Schrader valve removed, cylinder at TDC, providing 80 psi of air inside the cylinder commenced only a 4-5 psi drop when attaching the leak down test regulator to the hose coming out of the cylinder. Based on these results, there was absolutely nothing wrong with the bottom end. I had just rebuilt it. Before the leakdown test, a compression test has been performed as well for a first step approach to ensure that I can get an idea of what's going on. Numbers 220 across boards. Going in a little more in depth, proceeding to the leakdown test after.

I thought Valve stem/guide seals have the nerve to leak while the engine is cold. Once they warm up, isn't that when they expand and hold the oil coming from the top of the head into the combustion chamber ?

This is really starting to make me mad. I just rebuilt the motor, and I used my old head off of my b16. I didn't replace seals for the heade, and I did have the head sit on a bench for about 6-7 months, over the winter in my garage. Although I did replace the valve stem/guide seals when I first put my b16 together, and I only put about 1500-2000 miles on it. Do they have a tendency to maybe dry rot ?

The car has no problem leaking oil when fully warmed up, partial load, everyday driving, WOT, etc. Only when cold.

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

Stock rubber seals can dry rot but i would suspect it would take longer than 6-7 months. Especially if the head was stored in somewhat of a climate controlled environment. I personally use viton seals... They will survive anything you can throw at them. That being said a New set of viton valve seals is only like 50 bucks... If you suspect them then it wouldn't be a bad idea to replace them.... Better to remove the worry.

I have seen valve guides leak of they aren't properly seated... They will expand slightly at operating temps then it goes away. If you take the exhaust manifold/intake manifold off then any oil leakage from the seals will be obvious. It normally forms this nasty crap on the valve stems.

Your compression numbers seem solid, so much so that i wouldn't expect the rings to be a problem... Try adding a cap full of oil to each cylinder and see if they bump dramatically.. I doubt they will.

I assume since you posted in here that you are boosted... Have you inspected the turbo yet?

EF9_TryMe

wantboost! thank you for your reply. I gladly respect you chiming in on this mystery as well.

Tomorrow, I will take off the turbo manifold. When you say "forms nasty crap on the valve stem" are we talking about the actual valve dish ?

^If that's the case: With the turbo manifold off .. I'm rotating the engine until the exhaust valve opens up completely. This will allow easy access, and a much better look at the valve dish to look for this obvious nasty carnage, correct ?

This is my first time being boosted. Very mechanically inclined once addressed with proper description and in depth info. Lacking in the field about the snail and tuning, I wouldn't know where to look for if the turbo seals are leaking ? Hot Side ? If so, it's the obvious then ... a lot of oil ?

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

It will be on the valve stem in the port of the motor, not the valve face. You can just take the manifold off and you'll see oil buildup on the valve guides and the valve itself... It can look like anything from a blob of oil/carbon on the valve and port to a white looking substance.

When you take the turbo off look in the compressor outlet to see if its blowing oil out of the cold side. Also look in the turbine outlet for oil residue, if need be remove both housings and check the backplate and the wheels at the center section.

EF9_TryMe

Granted with spare time last night, unbolting the 12mm bots gave me easy access to go
further in depth with the oil burning/leak. To more accurately get a glimpse of what's going
on past the exhaust port, the convenience of my smart phone managed to capture a clear
stable picture to see what's going on. Will post pictures of other ports later when I get
Home. The other exhaust ports are completely dry..



Question, those silver speckles ... Are those traces of detonation and bearing failure? I was kind of runnin the motor a little bit at 12.5 afr while doing fuel maps. Thinking that this sign
leads me to believe that somebody needs to increase the fuel enrichment and
Retest to ensure that reliable function has a place in the future.

Ps: kind of in a hurry here so my grammatical errors are coming along lol...but the turbo is fine no leaks on comp. outlet and no leaks on hot side turbine downstream side.

EF9_TryMe

Bump, I know somebody has an answer to this.

2000GSRTypeR

Here is the Silver Surfer turbo that you were asking about in the compound turbo thread sir. https://honda-tech.com/forums/forced-induction-49/silver-surfer-turbo-special-3059022/

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

you wouldn't see detonation in the ports usually, best thing to do is pull your plugs and check them for specs.
Bearing failure would also not show there, as most of the metal would get trapped by the pickup and the filter... and I doubt you'd of made it this far with a bearing issue..

That looks like it could be bad valve stem seals, as any oil that made it in the combustion chamber would/should burn off and present as smoke

seanjgsr438

what oil did you break it in on?

EF9_TryMe

Thank god!

800 miles on the fresh rebuilt motor, using Shell Rotella straight 30.

I always change the oil every 250 miles. Following my own little procedure, Mobile 1 5w-30 Fully synthetic is my option after the 1000 mile break in comes to a conclusion. Don't ask me why, but I'd love to hear others
on what type of oil they use, viscosity, their procedures, tips, hints, etc. Very well open minded ears here.

My strategy has been acknowledged based on my experience and the hints taken from working with other mechanics.

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

That sounds like a good break in strategy. I too use rotella on break in due to its high zinc content.

EF9_TryMe

Sweet. Yeah, my motors have been tested with a compression gauge, verifying the proper
sealing of the rings after the break in procedure. Never had a problem so far.

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

and the zinc additives help protect bearings, rings, seals, and cylinder walls preventing premature wear of any components where metal to metal contact is a conern.

I run it full time in my 1 ton dodge gas van... 15w30, smoothed out a lot of little hiccups, get way better fuel mileage and the motor is actually quieter.

have you been able to check you valve stem seals yet?
heres a link for a full set of viton valve stem seals (only half of the supertech kit is viton)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/HONDA-VALVE-...ht_1937wt_1163
viton o-rings are damn near indestructible.. we use them in our suspension systems we build. only way to damage them is to physically cut them

EF9_TryMe

Definitely will get those valve stem seals you called for. I took the cams out so far, waiting
on thursday for the Matco guy to come by the shop. An order on a overhead valve spring
remover tool is present as we speak, guy should be here with the tool this thursday so I
can grab it off him.

I'll post pics of my purchase. Supposedly it's the best one out there on the market. Removing valve stem
seals, and at the same time avoiding cylinder head removal gives me the best of both worlds.

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

for removal i was lazy... 17mm socket on an extension with a rag over it and a dead blow hammer lol.

you should mail it to me when I get around to putting my valvetrain back in :p
I have every tool but one of those valve spring compressors.. i have them for motorcycles, ls7s, etc but not the one with the common rail/pivot point

EF9_TryMe

Never used this one before. Can't wait to try it.

EF9_TryMe

Valve stem seals replaced!

But..

The problem still continues, but this time not so severe.

After the repair has been complete, the car cranked up good on it's first start without
any trace of smoke within the area. Still being stone cold after sitting for a while, it took
a minute for it to actually warm up to operating temperature. During this process, multiple
stabs of throttle were applied to verify if the repair has been successful.

Eventually, that's what I thought ... until ...

The day later I took the car out after work to completely inspect the results.
The smoke gremlin has come back! However this time, the smoke is NOT present during
cold starts. Guess the valve stem seals took care of the job! The smoke is visible during
an excessive long idle. If the car sits at a red light let's say for about 2-3 minutes, and
acceleration is applied, a puff of smoke shoots out from the dumptube, downpipe, etc.

I will take a couple of pictures, and videos tomorrow so I can get some help from the
turbo pro's here on honda-tech! A picture means a thousand words.

EF9_TryMe

TTT!

Switching over to regular stock stuff this weekend for more in depth oil leaking inspection..
Any suggestions from the turbo masters out there on what it could possibly be ?

Reason why I want to swap over from FI to NA: Make sure that oil isn't burning.

Camsshaft

Couldn't it just be all of the residual oil in the exhaust system burning off from the previous valve stem seal issue? I'd check the I/c piping and I/c for oily residue or pooled oil. If present then a turbo replacement or rebuild is in your future.

EF9_TryMe

Haven't had the time to analyze any residue inside the intercooler piping.

As far as the answer to your question goes, it's burning oil as well.

It's gotta be the turbo seals.