spoolinlude

Ok, so I've been talkin to a few people on here about my whole experience with GE and the whole sleeving process in general. First off let me say that in no way to I disapprove of GE or their products, I think they're a great sleeve, and have many friends who swear by them, some of which are professional racers, so this thread is in no way meant to put down GE, even thou it may come off like that. sorry....

First off, I've came to the conclusion that many of us are paying too much for our sleeving to be done, way too much, my total bill from GE for just sleeves and machine work was nearly 1500 dollars. This included the sleeves, machining necessary to install them, o-ringing, boring/honing, and line "align" bore, whatever you want to call it.... which brings me to my next topic

Line boring should not be necessary after a re-sleeve, unless you send the company a seriously FUBAR motor, and many of you will say, I was told i need a line bore to be safe by GE, yes this is usually true. I heard the following right from GE. :: Basically their sleeving process, in particular the method in which the old sleeves are cut from the motor, puts an unusual amount of stress on the block, since all the torque is absorbed by the deck and sleeve area. Due to thier method, this "releases" stress in the block and results in a 80% of the time necessary line bore, since the motor will "settle" and throw it out of align, not always but most of the time. Upon learning this, I talked to a moderator on here (don't want to make anyone biased so we'll leave out who) who uses a different sleeve and he told me that when this stress is relieved it actually weakens the block.
Furthermore, align boring isn't the easiest thing to be done, and takes a pretty experienced machine shop to pull it off. Not to mention that once its done, you generally have to use new bearing sizes. This means using a standard bearing, putting it in torque to spec, measure that diameter, then measure your crank journal, take the difference and thats what needs shaved off your crank now, even more money spent to have a local machine shop lathe your crank! So in short align boring is an expensive process that many of us don't need. Genarally the only time one is needed is when a motor has a spun bearing etc, or in my case, a strange way of cutting out an old sleeve. Other companies such as benson, don't use this same method of sleeve cutting, which doesn't create the need for an align bore, and most importantly keeps money in your pocket.

In short, I think many of us pay too much for unnecssary machine work being done on our motors, not to mention a lot of extra time waiting for these other processes

Sonny

Unfortunately, like most hobbies in life (especially in my life ), you gotta pay to play. Like building an engine, there are many hidden costs in sleeving. Some people think "$800 for sleeves and I'm done". I thought, "$850 for pistons, rods, and bearings...and that's about it." I've got about $400 in machining costs and it's amazing how much those little things costs. Ie, gasket set does not include front or rear main seal, oil pump needs to be replaced, flywheel needs to be resurfaced, etc.

We spend a lot of money on "insurance" items like line boring and new seals. Is it always necessary? Probably not....but when you get the motor in the car, the last thing you wanna do is tear it out again.

I'm not sure if all sleeving processes require a line bore. I'd imagine that any time you machine away a substantial portion of the stock sleeves and press new ones in under huge amounts of force, tolerances will change.



Sonny

baphomet

I figured since I was installing a 5 main girdle on an LS that I would need one anyway.

spoolinlude

Thats more or less what I'm sayng, we do pay for things we may not need for insurance purposes, but according to some of the "experts" i've been talking with, these certain "insurance" processes are really only necesarry insurance for a full out race motor, as in 30+ psi, so really many of times the extra work even if it is insurance, isn't needed. Now, most of us have a few dollars to spend if we're wasting our time building up these damn cars! so money wasn't really the issue here, what I was more trying to say is that many of people who don't know exactly all the aspects of a sleeve job seem like they get taken advantage of by the sleeving companies, since they flat out don't know what they need. Which led me to saying that they also don't know the consequences of having certian things done (i.e. shaving the crank due to new bearing size). Also, from what i've been reading about sleeve installation compared to other companies aside from GE, it seems that everyone elses process is different, and actually that GE seems to go through the most trouble/steps throughout the whole process, yet again showing that the most complicated expensive work, isn't always the best

baphomet

I think you brought up an excellent issue - but where can joe shmoe (me) get reliable info from. I search and read until my eyes dry out, picking out usable information, but there is a lot of misinformation and if its coming from our engine builders who else can we turn too?

int3gra

turn to earl

TeStUdO

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by int3gra &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">turn to earl </TD></TR></TABLE>

Everyday I come closer and closer to a Benson block. But for reliable information i'd stick with Arturbo, Earl, MotorMatrix............you know the usual FI people around here.

EFb18b

Darton Total costs:

Block: $400
sleeves: $450
work: $600(performed by darton)
shipping: $70

Total: 1520

Finest

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by spoolinlude &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I talked to a moderator on here (don't want to make anyone biased so we'll leave out who) who uses a different sleeve and he told me that when this stress is relieved it actually weakens the block. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Just curious, does he "sell" these different sleeves?

spoolinlude

Maybe yes maybe no, a few well respected people in here have told me this

BoneStckCivic

Golden Eagle is on point with there blocks, I paid 1450 for 83mm and pistons, i have recently hear the price went up?? Dont know how true it is, But I would rather buy one time other then twice, so i believe in golden eagle!!!

IloveNewt

My GE sleeves leaked. Although they covered it under warrenty i paid for shipping, labor to remove the engine and re-assemble it. And most of all wasted my time. Warenty doesn't cover that.

danimal

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by spoolinlude &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Line boring should not be necessary after a re-sleeve, unless you send the company a seriously FUBAR motor, and many of you will say, I was told i need a line bore to be safe by GE, yes this is usually true. I heard the following right from GE. :: Basically their sleeving process, in particular the method in which the old sleeves are cut from the motor, puts an unusual amount of stress on the block, since all the torque is absorbed by the deck and sleeve area.</TD></TR></TABLE>

you are referring to align-boring the crankshaft main bearing journal holes after sleeving the piston bores? yuck! it sounds like they are pounding out the old sleeves, instead of cutting 'em out all the way.

the air-cooled vw motors we have been hot-rodding for years tend to require align-boring at some point, and for some people, it's a sign that the engine case is d.o.a... just get another one.

even in stock vw appications, with a crank that that is not counterweighted, you can pound out the crank bore... it also happens to cast iron v-8 blocks as well, tho, but the cause of the failure is of course different that sleeving the piston bore.

i would think that you could mike out the crank bore to see if its out of round, before committing to an align-bore... but personally, i would not subject an aluminum engine block to the kind of stress you outlined... it would never be as strong as it was to begin with.

go with a shop that knows how to sleeve a piston bore without bending the crap out of the crankshaft bore.

spoolinlude

thats becuase the hot rod vw blocks are billet aluminum! any strange torque can throw that off.... i think you all hit the nail on the head as to where i'm getting my info, so we;ll leave it at that.... I'd like to see this turn into a discussion on what really goes on from company to company between sleeving processes, meaning I want the companies to post their processes, i think thats fair

RenoRacing

Like I've read(and I'm sure you've all read)...
Cheap, Fast, Reliable... Choose Two!

Topics like this relate to all of us, everyone on here works hard for their money and has a hard time being that close to being done(or so you think) but money once again seems to be the limiting factor.. That my friends, is when people on this board pull though and help out our community and members by providing services and products in a manner that is rare and greatly appreciated by many in these times!

I personally would like to thank Earl, Tom(Camp1320), Anthony (Sparks Racing), Robert and Vince(GE) and the many others that I've been lucky enough to do business with and those who I will in the future!

by the way! broke asses look here! lol
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https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=636369
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=666221
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=670400
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=620858

I appologize for the people I have not mentioned that are an great part of our community as well! there are a lot of you!

rOby

my sleeving from ge was 650, bore the cylinders localy 100. that was all the costs associated w/ the sleeves. ge is a good company to deal w/ if u deal with VINCE. if you deal w/ TED, ur SOL.

Dr Honda

I use to run VW's and every time we did a rebuild we would have a align bore done. But it seemed to be a double edged sword. On one hand it would make shure that the engine case (Block to the honda guys) was streight and that you wouldn't have probs breaking cranks. But on the other hand, it made you use a fatter bearing, which would have a higher possibility of spinning. Also... over the years, I lost two cases in the machineing prosses. I guess better at the machine shoppe than in the middle of the desert.

I personaly wouldn't have the align bore done, unless it's a known problem that Honda motors break the crank after the sleves are done without it. The nature of the Honda block wouldn't lend itself to twist like a VW case. Besides, a B16 block is too expensive to loose because of fat bearings, or a machine tech that has a hang over.

The only way I would change my mind is if I hear that most Honda's throw thier crank after sleving.

Just my two cents.