wantboost

iTrader: (2)

Mine is just a bare engine bay stripped to bare metal at the moment... house fire has put me a year behind on the build

the aem let's you run a ton of sensors... the ones i picked up (when I was going to run my aem ems, moving to megasquirt3 PRO but the sensors are still useable) are a 3.5bar map, GM IAT, Mac solenoid, oil pressure and temp plus an oil pressure gauge at the turbo oil feed, fuel pressure and temp, engine coolant temp and pressure (running higher coolant temp pressures north of 20psi for extra temp threshold), 4 channel EGT 1 per cylinder, 4 channel UEGO 1 per cylinder (these and the EGT sensors are on an 8 input amplifier that communicates via canbus so I don't use up inputs, I can run anything on the canbus since it's 100% end user configurable), turbo manifold backpressure, air filter restriction gauge (testing multiple filter designs and locations), trans temp and pressure for my trans cooler, as well as differential pressure gauges for the oil and fuel filters so I can know for sure when it's time to clean the elements, turbo shaft speed sensor, and finally dual Bosch knock sensors, one between each pair of cylinders (1,2 & 3,4)

sounds like a lot but these will all be logged by the ecu and displayed on my digital dash. cuts down severely on the number of gauges needed and I'll be using this motor as a test bed for different system configurations. once I find the most efficient configuration for what I want the bulk of the sensors will be removed as I'm only using them for monitoring, datalogging, and comparison, plus it will help me make my setup as efficient as possible in addition to squeezing every ounce of power out of the motor.

DC_Legacy

So since this thread permits questions / topics that otherwise would be frowned on by making an entire thread about I'll ask for opinions here since I'm debutting on this...

So here's what I have

1st Gen B16A (JDM HMO motor)
Garrett T3/T4 57trim .63 A/R
440cc DSM style Injectors
Spoolin Performance log
38mm Tial WG
3" Exhaust
B16 LSD tranny
Stock everything else in a 94 GSR

I want to run more boost and ultimately make 350-400whp (currently its making 250) but this will be my DD still and I'm not looking to go crazy with power that will rarely get used on the street however I want this to be quick (quicker) and most importantly just fun to drive so I plan to turn the boost up (with proper tuning) and have plans to build up the bottom end OR build up an LS block I have...

The LS bottom end is just taking up space in my garage, waiting to be rebuilt however even though I never really fancied B16's (before owning one) I actually feel very content with keeping my displacement at 1.6L's and rebuilding the B16 for more boost.

Its a hard decision though because if I choose to rebuild my existing "running" motor which is the B16 then I face more overall downtime vs with the spare LS block, however if I choose to build the bottom end of the LS block this will allow me more time to keep my car on the road up till I'm ready to swap the LS block in where I'll have to tap the Pr3 head to get VTEC.

The idea of reusing the LS block has its obvious pro's since the block is just sitting around waiting to be reused and I'll gain more displacement to make more potential power sooner in my power band as a given however as I said, I'm liking the B16 as it is now with boost and would build this block up too if I choose to go this route because I have more than one vehicle to rely on during any down time.

Pro's / Con's

LS
* More displacement, more power potential
* Block can be prepared / built while I remain on the road with present motor

B16
* Potential for better fuel economy (when out of boost, with proper tuning for MPG)
* Potentially less piston wear (shorter stroke, less piston speed over life of pistons)
* No tapping or modding of head for VTEC
* Oil squirter for cooler piston temps

So overall plans are either keeping it at 77.4mm or 89mm, the bore will be oversized to 81.5mm in either block for piston size I want to run. I recently bought a set of GSR cams so with either setup these are going in and the B16's are getting ditched first thing. Injectors are next on the list, I'm thinking about Grams 750's or ID 725's since my HP goals are no higher than 400 at the wheels.

I want to keep the AC as it was built in mind by the cars past owner who choose the SP log manifold to retain AC, so I've considered the InlinePro manifold as an upgrade since it looks to be a good design and offers good placement under the hood with good power to be had as I've seen from countless dyno plots (thanks to Jeff Evans). Since my cam selection is fairly mild manored with simple GSR's I dont plan on making power much past 8000 either.

As for boost levels, I dont see running over 20psi even if this limits my target range of 350-400 since I want to keep this motor running for longevity too so I may make room in the budget for a 3 angle valvejob and a little cleanup of the head and having a spare P30 Intake ported lightly.

What do you guys think is the better route? Go bigger for easier power to be had, or stay 1.6L since plenty of power can still be made at this displacement respectively?

m4xwellmurd3r

Sensory overload in the best of ways

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

Well I'm building a road race car. telemetry and datalog feedback is crucial when trying to squeeze every last ounce out the chassis and drivetrain

if it was just a street car then I would be monitoring far less data. to me the most important gauges/data to monitor on a street car are boost, wideband, EGT, oil pressure, oil temp, fuel pressure, and engine coolant temp (ECT)

oil temp is the most important thing to monitor on any type of vehicle... I can't tell you how many people I see that wait until ect is at operating temp then they beat on the car. this is a huge no no. ect is normally the fastest thing on a car to come up to temp but it doesn't mean **** about whether you can beat on the car or not. until the oil is up to temp the motor isn't warm and this can cause a lot of damage to engine components if you start raping a motor on cold oil.

On our road course ls7 we don't go above 4,000 until the engine oil reaches at least 180-190F and even then we go easy until it climbs above 200F. doing this has kept our motor in unbelievable shape... when we check the bearings they show absolutely no signs of wear, as do other engine components.

oil temp is the key to a healthy motor. If you start beating on a car before the engine oil is 200F or higher then it means the oil hasn't gotten hot enough to burn off any moisture/water in the oil nor has it gotten hot enough to burn off some of the contamination in the oil as well. these 2 things are what cause any engine component lubricated by oil to start showing signs of wear and heat.

NotARaCist

iTrader: (1)

Stick with the LS, DC Legacy. If you want to get fancy, toss the B16 head on it, but you don't really need to for your power goals.

Damn you wantboost, now I'm remembering that I need an OTS, but I don't have room for it in my planned gauge layout

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

i can help with that lol

a company makes a really nice and affordable digital dual temp gauge (need to find the link). so you could monitor engine coolant temp and oil temp on one gauge with a digital readout.

NotARaCist

iTrader: (1)

Coolant temp honestly wasn't even on my list. I'm planning on a two gauge cluster bezel, plus three more in the primary DIN slot. I guess I could just forego putting a new stereo in the car, and put three more in the secondary DIN slot...

As absolutely ******* stupid as I thought the "add-on" CD player was in the 96-98 chassis, I'm starting to like having the extra DIN slot

I'm thinking tach, boost (in BAR, because I'm that guy), wideband, OP, and FP. I could get a cluster with a tach...yeah, I probably should just get a cluster with a tach.

Does anyone here have an intimate knowledge of SCCA classing?

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

An aftermarket tach isn't really needed.

I prefer having things like temps and pressures displayed digitally because you know at a glance what they are, it can get a little distracting looking at analog gauge faces trying to figure out what they're reading.

m4xwellmurd3r

Want boost, where are you tapping into for oil temp?

NotARaCist

iTrader: (1)

When your car still has the DX stock cluster, with no tach...yeah, it kinda is. The OEM tach is also **** for accuracy even if I do a cluster swap, so that's why I'm leaning towards an aftermarket tach.

Man, I'm the exact opposite. Once I get comfortable with a gauge setup, I know where everything is, the back of my mind knows where the needles should be pointing, and the corner of my eye can register them all at once. I had a (pretty sexy) all-digital setup with my last build, and while it was effective and looked ******* awesome, it just felt like the digital gauges were forcing me to read them.

m4xwellmurd3r

I agree with this. I can look at an analog panel and know if everything is good just by the needle positions. A digital panel makes you read each number to know if theyre ok (unless theyre high tech with programable color changing displays lol)

NotARaCist

iTrader: (1)

wantboost, I don't want to derail that kid's thread...but cryotreating nitrous into cylinder walls? That's actually pretty ******* impressive. I'm less curious how he did it, and more curious how he got caught.

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

Most of my information is displayed on the digital dash I'm going to run so I can see it at a glance (and yes the values change colors)

I haven't decided yet... the initial motor will use the stock oil pump while the second motor will use a Dailey Engineering dry sump kit.. the oil pan tells you overall oil temp, running it on the oil outlet to my oil cooler will tell me temp out of the motor.

on the dry sump setup you monitor it in two places, the oil tank (oil temp out of the motor) and at the oil inlet on the block (this tells you operational oil temp of the motor)

this is what we do on our dry sump ls7 and it's lead to some interesting data. Under normal driving the temp in the tank is normally 30-40F cooler than oil entering the motor. the oil entering the motor goes from the tank to the pump to the thermostat oil block (always diverts some oil through the cooler) and either out to the cooler or straight into the motor. I haven't had a chance to go over the logs after a 20 minute track session yet.

so more than likely on the wet sump motor it will probably be in the pan as that's the best place to gauge operational oil temp since the oil never reallys "leaves" the block and then one after the oil cooler. the dry sump motor will have a sensor in the tank and at the oil inlet on the block.

Only the operational or inlet oil temp will be displayed on a gauge or the dash, the ecu will log the other temps internally and display them only in the ecu software.

Take it from me, planning everything out for a track car is slow and meticulous. the irony of the house fire is that I've had a lot of time to refine my plans.

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

Yea that literally made my mind explode. he was caught because the race was a "spec" class and the top finishers were impounded and the motors were torn down. his cylinder walls showed odd discoloration and when asked he admitted to it.

blackeg

im using the cc stage 5 with upgraded pressure plate. my c16 numbers are in my sig. i probably have 10 hits at the track on it along with 6000 miles of regular road use. its wearing nice and evenly where my old act was coming apart in chunks with less miles

ls joker

would you mind feeling me in on this build. for a second it sounded like something from need for speed lol

m4xwellmurd3r

He was talking about a guy wanting to basically cheat an scca class, then went on to mention at a true grit 2 stroke event a motorcycle dude admitted to cryotreating his cylinders with nitrous

NotARaCist

iTrader: (1)

Aha, I gotcha. I figured it had to be something along the lines of him opening his mouth.

So, you seem to have a grasp on SCCA ****. Last time I did it, I was in rallycross, but I'm looking into road racing classes now, and the descriptions are...vague, to say the least. Are you familiar with them at all?

Turbo-LS

iTrader: (4)

I haven't switched to the aem yet. One last race on a barrowed s300 because the car is tuned and setup on s300 working well for races. Then there is down time till the fall for the next race at which time I'll tune on aem and get the car setup and ready to be competitive again.

I'll be datalogging pretty much everything you possibly can. The more information you have the better. I'll be doing rear wheel speed for boost control. T1 trigger and k coils. Oil/fuel pressures. Oil coolant intake temps. Coolant pressure exhaust back pressure. Might get a racepak dash over the summer so I can monitor everything without the laptop being in the pass seat.

Currently on the s300 I have added coolant, oil, fuel pressure and oil temp for datalogging

m4xwellmurd3r

I wont be datalogging anything except afrs and egts once I get a sensor and bung. Even though it wont be boosted yet I still want to be able to see the egt.

Oil temp and oil pressure is gonna be on gauges. I dont like the idea of not seeing them without a separate display.

Now I need to find a shop that can weld a nut so I can mount a temp gauge. Seems that the back of the pan, near the drain plug would be a good location.

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

lately no, the rules have changed a lot since the last time I read them.. I'll probably print the new rules today and gloss over them. I'm well versed in FormulaD rules as well as Global Time Attack though lol.

yea as far as the nitrous thing, I wasn't actually at the tech tent. I had a bike entered in the race (i wasn't riding, I was maybe 14-15 at the time so not having a license meant I couldn't physically compete because it was held on closed public roads lol. although me and my dad would go up to Suches and ride through the mountains when I was 13-15 with no license, always got away with it because I was over 6ft then) but at the finish the story spread like wild fire. the weirdest part was the nitrous didnt leach from the cylinder walls until cylinder temps reached a certain level (otherwise it would spell disaster). there were two classes that day a 50cc class that the cheater was in and a 100cc class that I had my Derbi entered in.

that's my other addiction, race bikes. we have two now and I've been part of many professional teams from WERA to AMA superbike/supersport as well as the AMA factory Yamaha team. I also raced sailboats as a kid. those were the days.

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

companies like autometer and stack make small 3 or 4 inch tachs that could easily be mounted in an OEM cluster to replace the stock tach. I know a few eg/ek guys have done this exact thing to avoid that huge external tach. USDM ex manual clusters with tachs go stupid cheap on eBay. that way you don't have some honking huge tach in your way as well as not screaming to thieves that the car is somewhat modified and needs to be broken into. plus it looks a lot cleaner and still let's you fly under the radar a bit. you might want to look into HRTunings digital dash that works with the stock ecu. affordable and works great... the entire layout is 100% user customizable.

See with a street car you have time to look at every gauge... when you're on a road course doing triple digits towards a heavy braking zone you don't have that luxury... you need to be able to scan the gauges quickly and assess the data as fast as possible before you run the car into a wall. once you learn the gauge/dash layout and you know roughly what range each gauge should read it's super quick. Also I feel that gauges with a warning feature are crucial for road course cars.

having a gauge flash or change colors when it's at or over the preset limit means you can focus your attention to driving instead of scanning gauges all the time.

we have a Stack oil temp gauge in the z06. It's a peak/warning type with a user definable max temp. after this temp the gauge turns red then flashes if you don't push a button to acknowledge the alarm. it also has built in outputs for datalogging oil temp (the voltage scale table is even included and they give you breakpoints for every possible number of breakpoints your ecu might have) it also changes colors depending on if temp is cold, good, or too hot. again these ranges are all user definable.

another cool function is because the gauge uses a digital stepper motor it has 3 zones on the gauge face each with 3 individual output wires for triggering events like something in the ecu or it can trigger a relay bank to control things directly like fans, solenoids, etc. Each zone also has a low output and a high output, basically when the temp is on the low or high side of each zone, so that's 6 output conditions that can control/trigger anything as long as whatever it's controlling doesn't pull current directly through the gauge "hence the relay requirements".

so say when the oil is not up to temp, you coul have the output for that zone trigger a secondary rev limit much lower than normal until oil temp increases. the second zone could be used for many things (the sky is the limit, maybe an led indicator for proper temp or increased timing, boost, etc), the third zone (highest temps) could be used to trigger an oil cooler fan in the low area and in the high area another lower rev limit to save the motor until oil temps drop, or it could be used to cut boost pressure, pull timing, or enable a secondary boost cut threshold.
their gauges aren't cheap but you definitely get your money's worth. their stepper motors are super precise (oil temp needle will move 1 degree in temp) and their sensors/sending units are very small... their oil temp sensor is even smaller than autometers and they have nice wiring (stress relief at the sensor body, raychem heatshrink/loom, and very long leads which is nice... I've found a lot of sensors don't have a long enough pigtail and have to he extended)

for example in our c6 z06 I can scan the entire gauge setup in a second or two at most, including our lap timer and GPS track analyzer because I know the layout and what each gauge should say and they are placed in your field of vision while driving. also having a heads up display on the windshield helps tons, the g meter is really fun to watch under braking.

I just simply couldn't take my eyes off the track long enough to scan that many gauges, digital or analog... having all engine critical engine data displayed on the digital dash means my eyes have to go one place and again, once you memorize where each parameter is displayed and what they should roughly read the digital display dominates (hard to tell tenths on an analog gauge) and then I have less important, secondary system data in gauge form on the a pillar, over/around the cluster, and wherever else I can view it easily and quickly.

There will (hopefully) also be 2 tunerview IIs on either side of the digital dash displaying additional data, the idea is to localize and centralize all important data within easy view. if I can I'm going to eliminate every gauge possible.. I'll still have to have a fuel level gauge (might be able to digitize, looking into that) and I might have a gauge as a backup should a sensor feeding the ecu and digital dash fail or something goes wrong with the dash and tunerview displays. but that would be mounted out of the way so I don't get confused by the two readouts.


I've had nothing but goodluck, plus the company is local to me and their customer service is second to none (also helps that a lot of friends work there) for example my friend gave me the Sr20det motorset out of s13 drift **** after an engine bay fire, engine was fine.. it had at least 30 hard day pong drift events on it plus daily driving. we had CC build a custom clutch somewhere in between a stage 4 and 5 along with the 9lb flywheel. after numerous burnouts, clutch dumps, and high rpm/high load clutch kicks the thing looked brand new. barely worn, no missing friction material, no signs of stress cracks or fatigue. the flywheel and pressure plate were slightly heat checked but no cracks and no warpage. both were still perfectly flat.

the same clutch has been in an SR20DET powered 350z that's a competiton drift car for the last 5 years and it's still going strong... original pressure plate and disc.

you cannot go wrong with CC IMO

CaliforniaDad

iTrader: (6)

What happen to your engine buddy?

Slacker93eg

I've been doing a bit of research, and I haven't really come up with anything conclusive. I would love to use the OEM water temp sensor location to run an Autometer digital gauge, however I would absolutely love to avoid having to tap into the head for the larger thread (from what I understand autometer uses 3/8, OE is 1/4?). Using connectors from home depot I feel would skew the readings off slightly.

Aside from using one of those "in-line" radiator hose adapters, are there any other options available? Post your set ups!

ls joker

tapping the thermostat housing