Stay_Tuned

Set it and forget it ignition timing. You might have to join up to read this debate but its worth the laugh. Please feel free to comment in this thread on Honda Tech or in the thread Maritimesportcompact.ca.

http://www.maritimesportcompac...06325

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combz combz is offline
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thanks guys..

and just so you think i'm not on crack, and that i built my engine wrong..and its not supposed to sound like that..

here is another few clips..of a vitara's startup on youtube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...lated

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_xHJXJrXcc


sounds identical
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#43 Report Post
Old 07-17-2008, 02:18 PM
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well
the car is retuned..
i think at around 11 psi last year the car made 215whp, this time around at 11-12psi, it made 212? whp..i'm going off memory.
at 13psi it made 224whp

at 15psi it made 230whp 220wtq.

The turbo is supposed to be good for 31lbs per min, and max boost at around 22psi, before it starts pushing hot air..
i have no idea why it started pushing hot air at 13psi.


Anyways the car never overheated after being on the dyno all day, the moment we took it off, and did a hard second gear pull, it just started to over heat on the second time at a second gear pull.

Too it back to the shop, the fan switch appeared not to be working...so jumped the pin and hard wire fan on with car. Still overheats when i boost it with fan on full time.

It is just odd that something would happen while driving it and only in second gear, when on the dyno we did 3rd gear pulls and often right after one another..you think if it were gonna die it would die then..?

MEh..
Thats first thing on my list to figure out.
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Old 07-20-2008, 01:36 AM
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Ignition tuning is your problem...why?...it didn't do it on the dyno because the dyno doesn't do a good job of simulating real load conditions, some more so than others. Ignition problems will show up right away because of this.

lol, your turbo is not pushing hot air, it will obviously make power well past 13 psi. Another sign of improper ignition tuning.

Put a knock meter on it and keep tuning.
Last edited by spank110 : 07-20-2008 at 03:04 PM.
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Old 07-20-2008, 10:39 PM
JD RACING JD RACING is offline
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how many hondas have you tune if he want to bring it back i will put it at 30 degree timing to see how long it will last


the turbo is small i wont make good numbers yes it may make hp to 28 psi but after 20 it all hot air

if he want number i can get them but he wont get realebelity
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Old Yesterday, 04:16 AM
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I haven't tuned any hondas. It just needs a little more time and tweaking just like anything else. Timing needs to come back before the boost can go up. At a given boost, as rpm rises timing can be added gradually as load decreases due to the higher rpms. Combz I bet your getting most of your head lift in your midrange.
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Old Yesterday, 04:56 AM
Anonymous Rider Anonymous Rider is offline
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Post the ignition map!
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Old Yesterday, 12:36 PM
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i read a bunch of threads on h-t about headlift underboost..

i searched "headlifting" on there, and mostly everything that came back was in ther forced induction section...and all threads had to do with d series boosted hondas.(i guess the rumor is true, that d16y's don't like a lot of timing)

The common consensus is too much timing at higher psi levels.
No worries it can be fixed. I'm gonna replace headstuds, headgasket, check block and head for warpage, then go back and fix it up a bit. We just need to pull a bit of timing out on the maps.

Its difficult to know if your running too much timing on the dyno.. d series is still in its infancy around here and we're all still learning.

i won't know whats going wrong with it until i start trying a few things...Could be a bunch of things
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Old Yesterday, 01:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by combz View Post
Its difficult to know if your running too much timing on the dyno.. d series is still in its infancy around here and we're all still learning.
Its only difficult if you don't have any way to properly monitor detonation. Just listening for it is no good. Install a knock sensor, I believe ECTUNE can monitor detonation for you then. Watch it closely on the dyno and during the street tune, make adjustments as needed to keep it low, you will make power and it will be reliable. Ignition tuning is everything, and very time consuming to get it right.
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Old Yesterday, 03:39 PM
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All this talk about timing, did you ever consider that the headgasket was not torqued properly or the gasket may have failed.....something to think about. Who put the motor together?

When it comes down to building something, if you don't have the experience to do it, don't, if you think you know how to do something because you read it somewhere on the internet, don't. There's too many Internet Mechanics and Internet Tuners out there already.

Also saying that the dyno load isn't the same as the street, fine, i'll agree to that, however, stating that the timing adjustments would be different. No. When you are on the dyno, there is not much air travelling through the intercooler as there is on the road, so that being said, when you are on the road driving, air is hitting the intercooler and cooling the air, thus, cooling the charge of air in the cylinders and making the combustion chamber cooler as well. We all know why people put cold air intakes on, same deal, thats why you would always make more power on the street with a turbo car. Cooler combustion temps allow you to run more timing, not less.

And as for the small turbo being good for 20psi, i can't even imagine running past 12 or 13psi, would be pushing hot air by then im sure. What is the charge piping and intercooler rated for, did you check the difference in temp on each endtank after a run on the street.

Before you start chasing a problem, you need to know what the problem is.


Modified by Stay_Tuned at 2:02 PM 7/22/2008

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I hear your point but, changing a head gasket cleaning the sealing surfaces and torquing it down with ARP hardware isn’t rocket science either. There are a few of guys around now that think they have super tuner powers and that regular people should not attempt their super human feats. Maybe we could suggest he buys another new torque wrench too, cuz he could have got a bad one of the shelf. . There are always many possibilities some more outlandish than others but many people online or otherwise do put in the wrench time and the research time from accredited sources and diagnostic time to sort these issues out. We have to deal with different tuners and setups in a lot of different vehicles all the time as part of our daily routines and you cant stop learning .

His issue is head lift. Its actually cylinder movement or vibration caused from detonation under boost. This symptom is more common in open deck engines, whereas in a closed deck engine like an RB26 for example it will blow the head gasket out or even start taking out sparkplugs. He’s getting it on all four cylinders and a leak down test proved this as it checked out fine. Only happens under boost, or detonation to be more specific. Interestingly if he rocks the distributor back at the same boost the issue goes away.
You’ve probably changed a million head gaskets… How many of them fail and give those symptoms? He’ll have to change the scrubbed head gasket now, regardless.
\
To say that no tuning adjustments are needed from the dyno to the street is absolutely the single most uniformed thing I’ve ever heard one say. Timing map adjustments are definitely required on the street verses the dyno and that’s even assuming the dyno is in perfect operating condition with load simulation, any tuner will tell you that. You can’t simulate the common load conditions with an inertia dyno. It changes on the street and any load that is present remains constant on the dyno. This is the biggest difference. Uphill , downhill on straight a ways, the gear your in speed your going , temp etc etc…I don’t think we need to get into this, its basic. Also keep in mind were talking about a simple inertia dyno in this case It just puts down horsepower and torque numbers, not the best thing for tuning turbo cars and diesels, dyno‘s with an eddie brake (load simulation) are capable of this and can simulate racing conditions showing these problems before it hit’s the streets. Before you start chasing a problem you need to know what the problem is and if you read Combz issue, then according to your comments on being able to add timing on the street because his intercooler is working better, he should be having the opposite problem, overheating on the dyno and not overheating on the street and your comments on the charge piping (???) or intercooler being to small… now assuming his ignition timing wasn’t way off they yeah you can add a degree maybe two thanks to the colder and therefore more condensed air entering the engine but that’s fine tuning , his issue isn’t fine tuning basic ignition tuning. Were not even there yet, your only confirming what we already know.

The dyno especially an inertia dyno, isn’t simulating load at all like the car is on the street. So on the dyno your seeing a car that isn’t able to run higher boost and therefore not putting down what it should due to detonation. When he hit’s the street its just making a bad situation worse. More load , boost, equals less timing, to simplify this concept, if there is load change then obviously timing needs to change with it.

If you don’t understand this then you need to read page one paragraph A of the EFI tuning guide to the universe, and while your at it pick up a proper basic data logging knock monitoring system, someone leaning over the engine listening for detonation on an inertia dyno just doesn’t fit the bill, so to speak, and well all know if you back off timing he will loose power, but again, you can‘t stop there, there‘s still lots more tuning to do in the right places to more that gain that power back. If detonation is now under control you can run proper air fuel ratio around the 11.75 - 12.25 range, give or take, under boost. and start dialing it up safely and reliably and efficiently. Go back and adjust timing, then up the boost, touch up air fuel etc etc. and safely make more than the power you lost backing off ignition. It takes time to do it properly, you gotta expect to run into issues, most highly skilled technicians cannot properly find tune a car in one afternoon of tuning. This is how EFI cars are tuned and have been for many years., its not even worth debating

I’m pretty sure his turbo is a Garrett gt28r 60 trim 60a/r dual ball bearing. His issue isn’t that its out of efficiency or “pushing hot air” if you look at the compressor map it is efficient at 18 psi all day long, there having problems at 12-13 its breaking down. It is a proven setup many times over. Even stock SRT4 turbochargers get run up to 16 lbs without detonating and there about the size of a chicken wing. Ignition timing isn’t just set it and forget it, You can’t just put 18 straight across the heavy load range, if for some reason you decide to do this you can buy time with crazy rich air fuel ratios in the tens to cool down the combustion chamber but you will still eventually end up cracking sleeves, ring lands and head gaskets down the road, its just a matter of time All Hondas (just like any EFI cars) do not run the same ignition timing. Every setup for that matter is very different and that is why ignition timing isn’t copy and paste making it very time consuming, It needs to be adjusted before and after air fuel and boost changes, but I read that on the internet somewhere so I could be wrong, Why doesn’t someone just post the ignition map his car is running now, we can have a look and help combz, rather than comparing how big our turbo’s are.


Modified by Stay_Tuned at 2:05 PM 7/22/2008


Modified by Stay_Tuned at 5:47 PM 7/22/2008


Modified by Stay_Tuned at 7:52 PM 7/22/2008


Modified by Stay_Tuned at 9:01 PM 7/22/2008