What is this from and how did it get to my oil filter?

 
Old 10-31-2017, 11:20 AM
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Default What is this from and how did it get to my oil filter?

They are non-magnetic metallic. Looks like a ball bearing cage.

Found these pieces at the inlet holes of the oil filter. So they should be from the oil pump, one would suspect. But, I can't see in any exploded view of a bseries oil pump where they could have come from.

ATM I have no oil pressure. I had oil pressure. At least enough to turn the light off. Swapped oil filters to a new one. Started engine, idled for couple seconds, light stayed on..killed it. Pulled off new filter, new filter is bone dry. Pulling pan next. Prob killed the pump. But...do these look like pump pieces?

Thoughts?




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Old 10-31-2017, 12:47 PM
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Default Re: What is this from and how did it get to my oil filter?

Originally Posted by theYBLEGAL View Post
They are non-magnetic metallic. Looks like a ball bearing cage.

Found these pieces at the inlet holes of the oil filter. So they should be from the oil pump, one would suspect. But, I can't see in any exploded view of a bseries oil pump where they could have come from.

ATM I have no oil pressure. I had oil pressure. At least enough to turn the light off. Swapped oil filters to a new one. Started engine, idled for couple seconds, light stayed on..killed it. Pulled off new filter, new filter is bone dry. Pulling pan next. Prob killed the pump. But...do these look like pump pieces?

Thoughts?




what engine? Pumps dont have plastic? That shouldnt be in there? Usually it goes through a screen at pick up, through metal pump, into filter. Wtf? Repost when you figure it out for future reference plz. Is that carbon????

Last edited by Doodasi; 10-31-2017 at 02:14 PM. Reason: More
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Old 10-31-2017, 02:39 PM
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Default Re: What is this from and how did it get to my oil filter?

B16

Its not plastic, because I cannot melt/burn it with a lighter.

It's hard enough I can't break it or bend it with my fingers.

Yeah usually oil would go through the screen in the pickup that has a fine enough mesh that these pieces would not have been able to get through. Which has me stumped.

I will update as evidence is collected.​​
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Old 10-31-2017, 02:49 PM
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Default Re: What is this from and how did it get to my oil filter?

I have seen the sump screen tear before if there's enough suction on it from being clogged up really bad. I can't think of anywhere in the motor those pieces could have come from. What's really confusing is they appear to be black.
please do post pics and info as you find things.
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Old 10-31-2017, 03:56 PM
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Default Re: What is this from and how did it get to my oil filter?

Busted out the macro lense for you all.

So weird.

Prob start taking pan off later or tomorrow. Haven't got the courage to go out to the garage and start this project. I just feel like I'm going to end up pulling the whole engine now. Bah!





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Old 10-31-2017, 04:11 PM
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Default Re: What is this from and how did it get to my oil filter?

Size in MM

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Old 10-31-2017, 07:24 PM
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Default Re: What is this from and how did it get to my oil filter?

No oil pressure and knowing the oil pump gear from Honda is a cast material not forged and have read of the gear disintegrating especially in turbo applications.....

Here is the pic of a B16 Toda gear in pump. The shape is very similiar with your pieces:

Name:  toda_15131-b16-001.jpg
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Size:  121.1 KB

However, still doesn't seem right, I first would drop the pan and check the pickup screen condition.
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Old 11-01-2017, 05:00 AM
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Default Re: What is this from and how did it get to my oil filter?

Originally Posted by TomCat39 View Post
No oil pressure and knowing the oil pump gear from Honda is a cast material not forged and have read of the gear disintegrating especially in turbo applications.....

Here is the pic of a B16 Toda gear in pump. The shape is very similiar with your pieces:
the pieces are way smaller than the similarly shaped part of the oil pump though. like 1/4 the size or smaller. plus the material appears porous. my mind is boggled, and curiosity is twitching quite high currently for me lol
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Old 11-01-2017, 08:35 AM
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Default Re: What is this from and how did it get to my oil filter?

Really, it looks like sediment that got smushed through the oil pump. Compacted really well. Talking probably tons of force.
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Old 11-01-2017, 01:06 PM
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Default Re: What is this from and how did it get to my oil filter?

I give one vote to TomCat.

Do not turn on the engine.
Strip the oil pan and inspect for other parts.
Inspect also the old lubricant

If you see more of tiny metal parts from pump, the oil pump must be replaced and the oil pipes should be thorougly cleaned. Even if its not the pump and somenthing else blocked the oil pipes (and caused the oil pressure drop), the oil pan and internal oil pipes must be very well cleaned with compressed air at oil flow opposite direction.

porous metal probably means there is coolant leak in oil? Do you see "milky" oil? I can't be sure.
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Old 11-01-2017, 03:09 PM
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Default Re: What is this from and how did it get to my oil filter?

Originally Posted by Doodasi View Post
Really, it looks like sediment that got smushed through the oil pump. Compacted really well. Talking probably tons of force.
Would this be called automobile diamond?

Thinking about the idea of a bearing race and I can't think anywhere in the engine that has roller bearings. Crank is flat bearings, the head is integrated bearing surface I guess. The only places I know that have ball bearing type cages is outside of the engine, whether it's transmission or wheel bearing etc. Oh wait, does the distributor have any ball type bearings in it?

That's some serious pressure of sludge to get automobile diamonds......
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Old 11-01-2017, 03:22 PM
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Default Re: What is this from and how did it get to my oil filter?

The distributor does have a bearing on the shaft, but how would that make its way into the oil pan? Shaft-key-cam, no way for it to get into the engine.
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Old 11-02-2017, 07:28 AM
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Default Re: What is this from and how did it get to my oil filter?

Just thinking out loud here but could they be pieces of the old oil filter that you took out? Can't think of how else they could have gotten there, but if something like that tried to go thru your oil pump gears then the pump is almost certainly toast.
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Old 11-02-2017, 11:12 AM
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Default Re: What is this from and how did it get to my oil filter?

Originally Posted by tjbizzo View Post
Just thinking out loud here but could they be pieces of the old oil filter that you took out? Can't think of how else they could have gotten there, but if something like that tried to go thru your oil pump gears then the pump is almost certainly toast.
filter material is fiberous, and will end up after your pump and filter. It ends up in your bearings and oil galleys. I havnt seen a filter come apart since the old v8 days when fram filters were really crappy.
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Old 11-05-2017, 07:47 PM
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Default Re: What is this from and how did it get to my oil filter?

Got the pan off tonight. Removing the oil pan was an expensive proposition. Tried not to, but ruined the MyHondaHabit gasket I just put on a week ago. $100 poof.

Well. I have damage to the oil pickup screen.

I have a fair amount of magnetic material on my plug. But honestly, it wasn't that bad. After wiping it on a clean paper towel, I saw no large particles. I'm guessing bearings will be OK.

I found no large debris or metal or anything in my oil pan or in the drained oil. I saw some hondabond, but only on the screen of the pickup as you can see in the picture. Didn't look like enough to cause a blockage. But IDK how the screen could get that hole otherwise really...

I can flow air through the oil pump and I can feel it come out by the filter (filter removed), although it is a little hard to feel it. I have a rubber hose with electrical tape on an air nozel gun, so I made a pretty good seal to the oil pump pickup inlet. I tried removing and re-placing the tube into the oil pump while spraying 80psi air, and I didn't feel any resistance. It didn't want to blow the hose out of the hole what so ever.

What do you guys suggest? Try to blow oil the opposite direction through the oil pump? If I funnel oil into the oil filter point, so it flows into the pump, should it trickle out of the bottom? Half-*** mount the oil pan with oil in it (and a new oil pickup) and see if I flow oil now? What do I try next?

Ordering new pickup in the morning monday.

a


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Old 11-05-2017, 08:59 PM
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Default Re: What is this from and how did it get to my oil filter?

With the hole in the pickup screen, no oil pressure and no "clog" to and from the oil pump, I think you need to take the oil pump off and inspect the gear. I bet you it's damaged.
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Old 11-05-2017, 09:23 PM
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Default Re: What is this from and how did it get to my oil filter?

Word.

I was going to order a toda gear but geeze, $340. New OEM fine for me? Stock redline. Sees gingerman raceway one weekend a year. Daily otherwise

It's an OBD1 B16, do I want to shim it or port it? (Old undamaged one, or the new one if needed)
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Old 11-06-2017, 01:57 AM
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Default Re: What is this from and how did it get to my oil filter?

Originally Posted by theYBLEGAL View Post
Word.

I was going to order a toda gear but geeze, $340. New OEM fine for me? Stock redline. Sees gingerman raceway one weekend a year. Daily otherwise

It's an OBD1 B16, do I want to shim it or port it? (Old undamaged one, or the new one if needed)
oem oil pump is fine.dont shim it. An obd2 oil pump is ur goal
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Old 11-08-2017, 06:21 AM
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Default Re: What is this from and how did it get to my oil filter?

Is the crank turning freely? Take out the spark plugs and turn the crank slowly by hand. If there is left any debris into the pump you will be able to hear them

Strip also the valve cover before striping the oil pump. maybe something is broken up there.

Make a leak down test.

If the oil pump is replaced (buy a used one, you don't need to buy an expensive new), leak down is ok and the crank is turning easily by hand, than you can reinstall oil pan, valve cover and try to start the engine. Make sure oil pressure is high at the initial cranking (add a cheap pressure gauge, you will needing it for constant monitoring oil pressure untill making 300-500 miles).
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Old 11-08-2017, 10:03 AM
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Default Re: What is this from and how did it get to my oil filter?

It's that time of year. It's getting colder out. Less fun to work out in the garage. I was just being lazy wishing/hoping I wasn't about to tear stuff apart now.

I'll buy a new pump. $150 isn't bad. Plus I drive the car hard. It's turbo, ~250-300whp. I should know the oil pump is worn, and clearances are what's keeping me from generating oil pressure. The greater the clearances, the less pressure. Pump is approx 180,000 miles old now.

I have to remove the valve cover to remove the timing belt, my cam covers are uncut. Deff inspecting. Yes.

Crank moves fine. Engine sounded fine when it idled on the last test.

Working on taking oil pump off next chance I get.
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Old 11-08-2017, 03:29 PM
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Default Re: What is this from and how did it get to my oil filter?

Turbo eh? You have oil lines on that thing that could lead to debris where you found it?
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Old 11-08-2017, 06:57 PM
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Default Re: What is this from and how did it get to my oil filter?

Yeah. Well, I checked the shaft play, and it's the same as when I rebuilt it in July (very very little). It's a GT2871 CHRA, dual-ball bearing. Spins smooth (unlike my last bearing cartridge I had in it last time).

My turbo is a GT2871 that I swapped the cold side over to a billet wheel and a GTX30 compressor. Turbo Lab ceramic dual ball bearing cartridge. I rebuilt the turbo a year or so ago, and after the first rebuild, when I would spin it, it had a thump thump flat spot kind of sound. It eventually blew the bearing cage on the hot side, and had noticeable shaft play. I was hesitant, but ended up rebuilding the turbo a second time in July using another Turbo Lab ceramic bearing cartridge. Upon disassembly I found the bearing cage was gone allowing the ***** to group up and the shaft to be improperly supported. I took note that the new one's bearing cage is made of a high temp plastic (white). Since the rebuild, the turbo assembly spun smoothly, no flat spots, and the wear seems to be none since July. So turbo should be situated, I hope.

But, just a few weeks ago, I swapped the oil pan gasket because it's been leaking. Occasionally I would find myself very low on oil. The oil pump has probably been getting abused way too much lately.

Anyway, when I took off the pan those few weeks ago, I found bits of the plastic from the turbo bearing cage. Crazy they never made their way out in the many oil changes since the turbo developed the shaft play. I did inspect my oil pickup those few weeks ago. There was no hole in the screen then. It was slightly dented inward, so I gently pried it back into shape. So what ever damage happened causing the screen to be punctured, was in the last few weeks.

I think even though the black bits I just found are really man-made in shape and appearance, I think they are engine diamonds. I think it's oil that was coking in my oil pump that was just being smashed. I found if I torch the bits, they will glow and burn, and smells like burning oil. I don't think it's from the bearing cage from the initial turbo rebuild/failure since I cleaned the pan before the damage.

I really should stop rolling the dice and actually measure the bearings but...meh. I'll swap the pump, make sure I have no leaks, and see how it goes. Otherwise I guess I have all winter to decide what else I'm going to do with it.

Hopefully bearings aren't bad and I don't have more issues
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