1988dxsedan

iTrader: (2)

Another honda bearing question: engine is done at the machine shop. Im a capable tech, I purchased decent mics, dial bore gauge, snap gauges, plastigauge, etc. I have every intention of following laskeys chart. My question may be stupid or simple but none the less, im gonna ask it:

I get the concept of laskeys measurements, do I have to measure the bores with a bearing installed? Or torque the caps, measure the bore, amd laskeys chart includes the actual thickness of the bearing half?

Just trying to find out if I need to order say 2 green bearings as a median size to get a base measurement off of, or do I do the measurements without any bearings installed. Appreciate the patience, I just want to be 100% sure of every step I take. When I measure everything at work on an engine I generally have new bearings already in hand as a baseline. I do not want to order a bunch of un needed honda bearings.

PyroProblem

I measure with the bearings installed. Rod torqued.
There might be a small mark on the bearing from your your bore gauge but it won't hurt anything.

Measure rods with bearings installed and rods torqued. Measure crank journal diameter. Subtract the difference.

I measured my own bearings and compared them to Earls chart and they were pretty much spot on. You can also get about a half a thousandth (.0005") from a very very light hone on the big end of the rods if you need to go down a size and already have bearings purchased.

PyroProblem

If it's a oem bottom end, I'd start with the block and crank/rod codes as a starting point.

1988dxsedan

iTrader: (2)

The block has been sleeved. The crank im using is not from this block, but is a low mileage virgin crank, therefore the block code does not apply.

So for the mains, should I go ahead and order 2 green bearings as a starting point? Take my measurements on each main, than from there, order the bearings according to my calculations, than obviously remeasure each main with its specific bearing setup to verify?

What is a good bearing to start with for eagle rods? Ive read a lot and some say greens are to tight, even reds are too tight? Just looking for a starting point. Going to order 2 rods and use them to measure all the rods than order the remaining bearings according to my measurements. I know the rods can be honed to resize but I need to start somewhere with new bearings to establish a baseline and determine which bearings will be needed where.

PyroProblem

If the block has been line honed then yeah you can throw the block codes out the window. Even mixing different cranks with different blocks, you can use the codes to get a pretty good starting point (bearing color wise).

I'd start with measuring the big end of the rods and the crank journal. This will give you an idea of what the bearing shells should measure thickness wise and using lasky's charts give you the correct color bearing however the few sets of Eagle rods I've used All needed some light machining to bring everything to the correct size/bearing clearance. They come a little tight from Eagle.

1988dxsedan

iTrader: (2)

It was not line honed, it was checked, and all was good. Using oem main bolts. Will the block code get me that close even with a different crank? I dont want to waste too much money ordering bearings I cant return, not real cheap through the local dealer either.
Part of me thought, if acls are considered honda greens size wise, and 9 out of 10 the clearances work out in spec with acl, I could probably just order all greens for mains and be fine, but ide rather take the time and get the clearances dead on.

Going to order 2 green mains, use them to get my base measurements, use laskeys chart to dial in my clearances, and order all my bearings after that.

I guess ill order 2 reds to start measuring the rods, and if they are all still to tight, I can order all reds for the rods and have them honed to fit the reds.

TomCat39

If your crank (new virgin), block and rods all have the Honda markings on them, you can still use the Honda Chart as your base and go from there.

The markings correlate to each other to indicate the proper bearing sizes.

If you go this route, you improve your chances of not having to buy any other bearings.

I believe that was what Pyro was eluding to.

Now if your crank isn't a Honda crank so is missing the Honda markings.... Then you are shooting in the dark and your going with a green set to measure with is your best bet.

And for the rods, which is cheaper, one set of bearings or honing each rod?

PyroProblem

The block will have its unique codes and the crank will have its own unique codes. Using the chart, match up The crank and block codes and that would be The bearing color to use per Honda.
Last set of Eagles I measured (current build), no oem Honda bearing would give me the correct clearance. I think I eventually used a mixture of ACL HX bearings and regular ACL. I forget...
When I measured the big end of the rod without the bearing and compared it to spec I realized it was just a bit smaller then what I needed so I went and looked at another set of Eagle rods from a previous build and measured the Big ends again and remembered I had to have them honed also.
Also check the wristpin bushing. My eagles also had to be opened up a hair like a couple ten thousandths of an inch. The wristpin should fall right through The rod.

PyroProblem

Yes Tomcat, that's what I was referring to. Brains not quite been 100% lately lol

TomCat39

Nahhh, I think you were dead on. I just think the OP didn't quite get what you were saying, so I said the same thing but elaborated a bit more to see if it helps.

Seems to be one of my skills..... Beat a dead horse to death. :D

1988dxsedan

iTrader: (2)

Thank you guys for your help, patience and knowledge. Its nice to see people helping and sharing info rather than just being wise guys and yelling at someone to use the search function. Anyone back on topic:

The block is a b16 with aebs sleeves. I'm double check the markings when I get back from vacation.

The crank is oem honda b16, never messed with, low mileage. It should have all the markings. The crank is not from this block. Its from a donor engine.

How to the codes work if the crank and block were not original to each other? My understanding, and very well could be wrong, was those codes pertained to that one specific block/crank combo when honda assembled it. I have no issue ordering a few bearings as test subjects. Just didnt want to assume something and end up with 200 bucks in useless bearings

PyroProblem

Thanks tomcat. Between a hangover and auto correct, I can be hard to understand and make sense lol.
OP, do you have a factory service manual for your engine/car? If not I highly recommend one.

PyroProblem

For Example. If the block code is CCCCC and the crank codes are 33333, I would start off with a brown and see where that lands me.

PyroProblem

Yes it is. I hope more builders and machinists join this section to answer questions and share knowledge. Engine building is a dying art. I like to think the folks reading through this forum are a little more mature and serious about building engines. Were all here to learn not be ******** to a stranger just because you can.

TomCat39

Just to help your understanding, the codes on the block and crank aren't related to each other. The codes on the block are strictly pertaining to the hole size of the block mains. The codes on the crank are strictly the journal thickness of each journal.

So even though the block and crank are not from the same engine, if they are Honda, Honda has measured them and marked them the code that relates to their respective size.

From that, you take the code from the block and the code from the crank and they cross reference on a table that tells you the color of the Honda bearing that is supposed to be the perfect fit for that journal to that main hole.

Same applies to rods if they are Honda rods.

The table is what Pyro posted the picture of from the factory service manual also known as the Helm's manual.

1988dxsedan

iTrader: (2)

Okay okay the code thing is making more sense now. I have a factory service manual for the original car and engine. This being a b16, i need to pick up a book for an si or something. I have the older, how to build a b series book that has a lot of really good info in it. I believe that has the bearing chart as well. I appreciate the clarification on all this. When I get home from OBX ill check the block for any markings. I know the crank will still be visible, but the block will be a big ?. I was reading also, on an older thread that it was the paint markings on thr block that dictate bearing info. I thought it was physically stamped into the block?

1988dxsedan

iTrader: (2)

Just a little something to show you what im working on. Just a mock up of whats to come. <br ><br >

TomCat39

The D series has the engravings for the bearing codes on the block where the bell housing of the tranny mates up.

It seems the B series is more like the F and K series with it in the oil pan area.

Doing a little google searching I noticed the F series and K series seems to be a tang on the oil pan section of the block that has the engravings.

The FSM for the motor will show exactly where the engravings are.



This is allegedly the B18B fsm page.

1988dxsedan

iTrader: (2)

awesome. im excited to get at it as soon as i get home. been a long time coming, and i still have a long ways to go until its done, but thanks again. ill post up what i find as far as the markings go. and some pics of the measuring and assembly process.

1988dxsedan

iTrader: (2)

Hey guys just wanted to give a small update. I apologize for not updating or checking in after vacation, with a 9 month old and my hectic work schedule and looking at new houses, time has not been a friend of mine. I have beem working on it this week. Heres what ive done. I ordered 2 green mains bearings and 2 red rod bearings for measurement purposes only.

-yesterday I mic'd the crank and everything came out in the middle of the factory tolerances (awesome).
-today I wanted to work on the block portion of things and its just not working out. I am using decent mics, however I did not buy a dial bore gauge, thinking I could use my snap gauges and mic them. I am getting no consistancy at all and I'm only on#1 lol. I used arp torque lube on the main bolts and torqued to 22 than 56. And everytime I measure my snap gauge its different. Im probably going to break down and buy a dial bore gauge.
- I than tried to measure without the bearing and utilize laskeys chart. I got curious and mic'd my green bearing half and it was not what his chart says. I tried the ends and the middle hmmm?.
-so I looked and my block does have a stamping "DCDDD"
-theres markings and numberd on crank but not on each main. Going to keep looking and researching.

1988dxsedan

iTrader: (2)

I think the crank says this (read from 1-5 journals) "32122"

1988dxsedan

iTrader: (2)

Accordinh to all my markings here is what I've found.
1-black
2-green
3-green
4-brown
5-brown
-so I used my green bearings on 2 and came up with an oil clearance of .001 (spec is .0009-.0017). According to my calculations I'm at the right end of the spectrum per Honda codes.
-#3 was anywhere from .001-.0012 depending on my dumb snap gauge.
Should I roll with this?

1988dxsedan

iTrader: (2)

Coworker of mine has a dial bore gauge that I can borrow. So ill be getting that tomorrow and rechecking everything. Heres a question: why when I mic the thickness of my brand new oem bearings do they not even come close to laskeys chart for bearing halves?

Quick update: I torqued #2 &3 caps wrong. Loosened and retorqued to 49 ft lbs. Used dial bore gauge to measure my clearances and got .0013 on #2 and .0015 on #3. Perfect for me. Im going to go ahead and order mains according to the block codes since those two worked out perfect, and recheck with plasti gauge.

-rechecked my eagle rods using reds bearings and my clearances are all around .0030. Thats double what they need to be. Any thoughts on which bearings would cut that clearance in half?

1988dxsedan

iTrader: (2)

So my coworkers dial bore gauge doesnt go small enough. I ordered a fowler digital dial bore gauge that goes from 1.4-6" diameter and .00005 accuracy. No professional machinist equipment but fowler is decent for home usage, and honestly I probably wont use it again. So im going to start over from scratch, re mic the crank completely than dial bore gauge from there and will update when I get everything.

PyroProblem

I'd shoot for .002" personally.
.001" is too tight.
Snap gauges/T gauges really aren't consistent enough IMO to trust when measuring bearing clearances.

To measure a bearing half correctly, you need a ball anvil micrometer. The flat anvil of a regular Mic will throw off the measurement since the bearing is curved.